Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Are Schumacher's WDC and Win records under threat of being eclipsed?

Will the 7 WDC record be broken?
6
3%
Will the 91 Victory record be broken?
44
26%
Neither record will be broken.
20
12%
Both records will be broken.
102
59%
 
Total votes: 172

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Moore77
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Schumacher talking about Hamilton.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Moore77 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:32 am
Why is being a fan of A driver or A team, makes one find reasons to justify your belief that, A driver is superior or A team is superior? Why does it blind one from looking at it from all perspectives and respect everything?

How is comparing drivers across generations, regulations, cars, technology advancements is fair?
Why is a driver who had a dedicated No. 2 becomes of lesser consideration to another who doesn't?
Why is it so difficult to simply enjoy the excellence of a driver and/or a team which is on display, regardless of whether that driver/team is your favorite or not?
Why run down the achievements of the driver, who is not your favorite? Why do it to justify your favorite driver's achievement?
Has anyone of you experienced convincing an individual of opposite views to buy into your views, in the "who is the best driver debate?" I have never seen. Is there a point in fighting on the same topic, thread after thread, year after year?

I have observed a few individuals here, who are the first to jump into these discussions, which amuses me so much.
It happens across all threads on here though. If you believed a lot of what you read on here then both Hamilton and Vettel- as the most striking examples- are both average drivers who just happen to have had a lot of luck. It gets said about Schumacher from time to time as well. People struggle to be objective and are just uncomfortable admitting someone they don’t personally like is the best, or one of the very best, or even good!

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Phil
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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F1 is not just about the drivers, but about the package "team + driver". One does not go without the other. To a point, the car is probably more crucial to the driver (given the teams are thousands of employees with just one driver driving the car), but to be fair, if Hamilton had not been driving for Mercedes, I'm really not sure they would have won 2017 or 2018. The others, they most likely would have, which is a testament to how dominant the team has been since the hybrid era.

To be fair; I think drivers made a bigger portion of the performance back when cars had less downforce, were unsafer and the sport less sophisticated. On the other hand, I generally believe that the grid today is more competitive than it was back then. It just comes with the popularity and that the sport has become more accessible, increasing the competitiveness. Maybe it evens out. Even so, even coming close to 7 titles is nothing short of impressive, even if you had the team behind you to achieve it.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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If I were a team owner with the fastest car I would want the fastest driver available to pilot it. It is up to the drivers to put them selves in the frame to be in the fastest car, because in sport, being in the right team is a part of the game.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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The whole thing about how much the driver is the key is interesting. Ultimately, each individual car is capable of a certain lap time. Even two cars from the same team won't be capable of identical times because they aren't identical in every respect. A driver's job is to get as close to the car's ultimate lap time at any given moment as he can. Today, with so much management required during a race, the drivers don't drive anywhere near the car's ultimate pace. The better driver can manage his resources - generally the tyres are the limiting factor - and still get good lap times, the less able driver can get the same times but not for as many laps (where "able" means the ability to manage whilst being quick)..

In qualifying, the ultimate pace is more closely estimated as the drivers try to use every resource to its maximum for one lap. But we still have management in that process because the tyres and brakes have to be at their best condition in order to maximise the one lap. Sometimes we see the drivers being rewarded almost entirely based on how well they managed that set-up phase in the out lap. At other times, the set-up phase is less important. Again, the driver makes the difference where the conditions are marginal. We saw that in Spain this year where Bottas was quicker at the start of the lap, but Hamilton aced the last sector where lap time is to be found. That was partly ensuring the tyres survived in a good enough state to maximise the last sector, and partly just ability in that sector. Bottas had used up the tyre resource in a part of the track where it didn't need to be squandered.

In high downforce cars, the drivers are key because if you go over the limit in a high downforce car, you generally spin. In a low/zero downforce car, the car can usually be balanced and held if the tyres' grip is briefly exceeded. Indeed, in some formats, one needs to be sliding in some cases to get the best performance.

So, I would respectfully suggest that the driver is as much a part of the car's performance as he ever was. The best drivers get closest to the pace available in the car. No driver is capable of delivering more than the car can physically deliver - the worst phrase in motorsport is: he out-performed his car.
Last edited by Just_a_fan on Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fulcrum
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:40 am
holeindalip wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:20 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:05 pm
It feels just like in Michael's time; sort of non-eventful. Dare I say enthralling but not exciting. And I feel if this run ever happens again it will feel the same too. You just dont rack up these sorts of numbers without dominant machinery. I for one do not believe in dominant drivers. The very good are a couple tenths a part and that is within the margin of competitive cars. Dominant cars on the other hand are anything over four tenths faster than the closest.
I kind of agree with the dominant drivers part but I kinda don’t either, I mean Hamilton’s consistency is on another level man.do you think any driver on the current grid could honestly take it to him? barring reliability...
His consistency and his ability/drive to always get the best is a stand out feature. He tops the list of consecutive points finishes. He's in first (currently 39 finishes and counting) and second (33 finishes). The next man on that list is Kimi who had 27 consecutive finishes.

His percentage face finishes in the points is 85.55, ahead of even Fangio who managed 81% all those years ago. I think that's the stand out because it shows that even in his less productive years at McLaren, he was still finding points finishes.
Not to detract from Lewis' abilities, but most of what you have written is a function of the circumstances.
  • He's currently in the fastest, most dominant car, possibly ever.
  • He's currently driving the most reliable F1 car ever, in the most reliable era ever. 8 retirements since 2013.
  • He has always driven a car capable of winning, certainly of scoring points, and only one car (2009 McLaren) where his team mate failed to record a victory.
  • Points can be scored down to 10th place now.
  • Lewis never raced in an era where points were limited to the top 6.
  • Safety cars, virtual or otherwise, are far more prevalent now, especially when conditions become mixed.
  • The advent of DRS has meant passing cars has seldom been so easy.
To be frank, since 2014, Hamilton could have started every race from the back of the grid and not only scored points in very race, but had a good chance to be on the podium in many races, occasionally winning some. In fact, he's scored points in every race he hasn't retired - bar once - for Mercedes since 2013.

Where Hamilton deserves praise is his ability to be incisive while overtaking, or defending, without having altercations. This distinguishes him from his peers substantially.

Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:24 pm
Very true, but think how many poles Lewis would have had now if they stuck a barrichello or an Irvine in the other Mercedes instead of Nico. Nico managed 30 poles, it was often said Lewis set his car up more for the race.
You honestly think Rosberg was that inexperienced to do the same?

The more likely scenario is Rosberg felt more comfortable with the 2014 car and tyres during a hot lap.

Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:39 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:40 am
holeindalip wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:20 am


I kind of agree with the dominant drivers part but I kinda don’t either, I mean Hamilton’s consistency is on another level man.do you think any driver on the current grid could honestly take it to him? barring reliability...
His consistency and his ability/drive to always get the best is a stand out feature. He tops the list of consecutive points finishes. He's in first (currently 39 finishes and counting) and second (33 finishes). The next man on that list is Kimi who had 27 consecutive finishes.

His percentage face finishes in the points is 85.55, ahead of even Fangio who managed 81% all those years ago. I think that's the stand out because it shows that even in his less productive years at McLaren, he was still finding points finishes.
Not to detract from Lewis' abilities, but most of what you have written is a function of the circumstances.
  • He's currently in the fastest, most dominant car, possibly ever.
  • He's currently driving the most reliable F1 car ever, in the most reliable era ever. 8 retirements since 2013.
  • He has always driven a car capable of winning, certainly of scoring points, and only one car (2009 McLaren) where his team mate failed to record a victory.
  • Points can be scored down to 10th place now.
  • Lewis never raced in an era where points were limited to the top 6.
  • Safety cars, virtual or otherwise, are far more prevalent now, especially when conditions become mixed.
  • The advent of DRS has meant passing cars has seldom been so easy.
To be frank, since 2014, Hamilton could have started every race from the back of the grid and not only scored points in very race, but had a good chance to be on the podium in many races, occasionally winning some. In fact, he's scored points in every race he hasn't retired - bar once - for Mercedes since 2013.

Where Hamilton deserves praise is his ability to be incisive while overtaking, or defending, without having altercations. This distinguishes him from his peers substantially.
Plus you have to remember Schumacher made a lot of unforced errors in his career, Hamilton has made very few thus far.

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:39 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:40 am
holeindalip wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:20 am


I kind of agree with the dominant drivers part but I kinda don’t either, I mean Hamilton’s consistency is on another level man.do you think any driver on the current grid could honestly take it to him? barring reliability...
His consistency and his ability/drive to always get the best is a stand out feature. He tops the list of consecutive points finishes. He's in first (currently 39 finishes and counting) and second (33 finishes). The next man on that list is Kimi who had 27 consecutive finishes.

His percentage face finishes in the points is 85.55, ahead of even Fangio who managed 81% all those years ago. I think that's the stand out because it shows that even in his less productive years at McLaren, he was still finding points finishes.
Not to detract from Lewis' abilities, but most of what you have written is a function of the circumstances.
  • He's currently in the fastest, most dominant car, possibly ever.
  • He's currently driving the most reliable F1 car ever, in the most reliable era ever. 8 retirements since 2013.
  • He has always driven a car capable of winning, certainly of scoring points, and only one car (2009 McLaren) where his team mate failed to record a victory.
  • Points can be scored down to 10th place now.
  • Lewis never raced in an era where points were limited to the top 6.
  • Safety cars, virtual or otherwise, are far more prevalent now, especially when conditions become mixed.
  • The advent of DRS has meant passing cars has seldom been so easy.
To be frank, since 2014, Hamilton could have started every race from the back of the grid and not only scored points in very race, but had a good chance to be on the podium in many races, occasionally winning some. In fact, he's scored points in every race he hasn't retired - bar once - for Mercedes since 2013.

Where Hamilton deserves praise is his ability to be incisive while overtaking, or defending, without having altercations. This distinguishes him from his peers substantially.
Plus you have to remember Schumacher made a lot of unforced errors in his career, Hamilton has made very few thus far.

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ringo
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Phil wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:49 am
F1 is not just about the drivers, but about the package "team + driver". One does not go without the other. To a point, the car is probably more crucial to the driver (given the teams are thousands of employees with just one driver driving the car), but to be fair, if Hamilton had not been driving for Mercedes, I'm really not sure they would have won 2017 or 2018. The others, they most likely would have, which is a testament to how dominant the team has been since the hybrid era.

To be fair; I think drivers made a bigger portion of the performance back when cars had less downforce, were unsafer and the sport less sophisticated. On the other hand, I generally believe that the grid today is more competitive than it was back then. It just comes with the popularity and that the sport has become more accessible, increasing the competitiveness. Maybe it evens out. Even so, even coming close to 7 titles is nothing short of impressive, even if you had the team behind you to achieve it.
You know i am of the mind that the car played a bigger roll in the past than it did today. In modern times the teams have better tools to analyze and refine their car to the point that there is some level of convergence on the grid among the cars. Back in the old days, there was a wider gap in the performance of the cars because of the looser regulations and also wider disparity in the tools available to each team; for example carbon tub, vs aluminum, or bell crank suspension vs push rod etc. So it can be said that the cars made the biggest protion of performance. A great car was really miles ahead of a lesser made car. And this was maybe both in reliability, ride, ease to drive, power, grip. In fact if you have a look the dominance back in the day, it looks like it came from the cars more so than the driver. Modern times show tighter gaps with lap times, and similar perfromane. Back then a rival car was either better or worse, or faster but less reliable, but never just about equal. Driver roll mostly showed among teammates.
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Hoffman900
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Your intuition about the field being more competitive than ever is correct.

For historical reference:
https://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/f1_mrgns.htm

e30ernest
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:39 pm
In qualifying, the ultimate pace is more closely estimated as the drivers try to use every resource to its maximum for one lap.
Yeah this is where the F1 article based its top drivers from since it made the least deviation in terms of management, race incidents, etc. Schumacher still came out on top of Hamilton though, but both were behind Senna. :mrgreen:

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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e30ernest wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:58 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:39 pm
In qualifying, the ultimate pace is more closely estimated as the drivers try to use every resource to its maximum for one lap.
Yeah this is where the F1 article based its top drivers from since it made the least deviation in terms of management, race incidents, etc. Schumacher still came out on top of Hamilton though, but both were behind Senna. :mrgreen:
That article is an odd one. One of the metrics used was dominance of team mates. Schumacher had whom as his team mates over the years? No one particularly special really, although Trulli was a bit of a one lap specialist. Hamilton has had 5 team mates, 3 of whom either arrived as reigning World Champions or became World Champion and all of the 5 are on the list. Returning after 3 or more season away was considered and allowed for - that looks set up specifically to help Schumacher who, let's not forget, was roundly beaten by Rosberg when he returned.

As with all of these assessments, the assumptions/rules used in setting up the model have an affect on the output. Having said that, I'm not sure anyone would contest that Senna was a very special qualifier and probably deserves the top slot.

Shame it's not the whole of F1 history. I think that would throw up the names of Clark and Fangio, both of whom were the qualifying kings of their era. They'd surely be up there in the top 5, or even the top 2.

Anyway, it's all a bit of fun as you can't compare drivers that never raced each other, and certainly not ones that were in entirely different eras.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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F1 metrics blog has the best model so far. I can't remember if he did a fastest
Qualifier article yet though.

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ringo
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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So Hamilton can break the wins record this year and tie the title record?
If he has more wins, would that put him ahead of Shumacer for most successful champion of all time?
Or does he need to have a clear 8 championships?
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