Did Schumacher get aggressive because of Senna?

[ENGINE TUNER]

Prost move in 1989 should have been punished but instead, with Baleste as FIA boss, Senna was punished for something idiotic; Cutting the chicane. Prost of course played this game perfect and already had a contract with Ferrari. For F1, a Ferrari with a number one was good marketing. This made Sennas frustration grow, the following year, they moved Pole to the dirty side of the grid. All frustration boiled to the point that Senna didn’t even tried to brake. Yes wrong but after all this, almost understandable. Almost to make a point.

Agree with most of your post except that there was no reason for Senna to brake, T1 is a flat out corner, especially from a standing start. Prost didn't brake either and there is plenty of room for two cars side by side. Prost intentionally crashed into Senna in Japan 89, and he also caused the crash in Japan 90, although Senna could have avoided it, but had no good reason to do so.

My point stands that all the dirty driving/ intentionally crashing into competitors crap started with Prost. So if you want to point to anyone being the reason why Schumacher made the dirty moves that he did blame Prost and Balastre.

In term of hard aggressive driving in battles, that is something that originated in karts and moved up the ranks, Piquet and Mansell were are tough with their competitors as Senna.

I'm sorry but your post cannot be taken seriously if you try and blame Prost for 1990.

Prost closed the door, Senna didn't ram into the back of prost they hit side to side, Prost caused the accident, he could have given Senna more room. T1 is not a corner that requires braking, especially from a standing start. FACTS.

Prost is fully at fault for 89 and 90

[Andres125sx]

Agree with most of your post except that there was no reason for Senna to brake, T1 is a flat out corner, especially from a standing start. Prost didn't brake either and there is plenty of room for two cars side by side. Prost intentionally crashed into Senna in Japan 89, and he also caused the crash in Japan 90, although Senna could have avoided it, but had no good reason to do so.

My point stands that all the dirty driving/ intentionally crashing into competitors crap started with Prost. So if you want to point to anyone being the reason why Schumacher made the dirty moves that he did blame Prost and Balastre.

In term of hard aggressive driving in battles, that is something that originated in karts and moved up the ranks, Piquet and Mansell were are tough with their competitors as Senna.

I'm sorry but your post cannot be taken seriously if you try and blame Prost for 1990.

Prost closed the door, Senna didn't ram into the back of prost they hit side to side, Prost caused the accident, he could have given Senna more room. T1 is not a corner that requires braking, especially from a standing start. FACTS.

Prost is fully at fault for 89 and 90

"Prost made a better start but in the first corner I was coming faster than him" Ayrton Senna

As you say T1 does not require braking, once Prost was completely in front of Senna at the middle of the straight he didn´t need to leave any space. Senna dive bombed into T1 because he knew if both DNF he secured the title.



Anycase it´s a bit absurd of a debate, do you really think Prost would crash intentionally into Senna when that meant the title went to the brazilian? Prost might be many things, but stupid is not one of them


Disclaimer: IMHO this was karma, Prost did earn it after intentionally crashing into his teammate in 89

[Just_a_fan]

The initial curve at Suzuka isn't a braking zone so it wasn't a "dive bomb" at all. Prost turned in on Senna when Senna was a good portion of the way up his inside. Prost could have taken a line that avoided Senna but tried to bully him. Senna wasn't about to be bullied, knowing full well that if they both DNF then he was champion. Just like 89 but in reverse.

Interestingly, Senna had more wins than Prost in each season they were in McLaren together.

[strad]

A little reading would go a long ways. Prost just refused to yield to Senna.

[ENGINE TUNER]

"Prost made a better start but in the first corner I was coming faster than him" Ayrton Senna

As you say T1 does not require braking, once Prost was completely in front of Senna at the middle of the straight he didn´t need to leave any space. Senna dive bombed into T1 because he knew if both DNF he secured the title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JknW7h8DS0s

Anycase it´s a bit absurd of a debate, do you really think Prost would crash intentionally into Senna when that meant the title went to the brazilian? Prost might be many things, but stupid is not one of them


Disclaimer: IMHO this was karma, Prost did earn it after intentionally crashing into his teammate in 89

Prost did indeed get a better start , and did indeed pull fully ahead, but then Senna pulled into his slipstream and got enough of a run/boost, to pull up beside him. Prost must give space to a car next to him, he didn't and caused the collision. Look at the cars behind them, much wider approach angle.

Prost was usually intelligent, but he was stupid with this move. There was no dive bomb, Senna was positioning himself to be in a better passing position for a few corners further ahead, but prost ran him onto the curbs and Senna refused to yield. Senna could have avoided the collision, but it is clearly prost who caused it.

[gshevlin]

In motor racing, as in life, if you run into the guy in front, it is generally your fault. No evidence was ever published that Alain Prost braked early or differently at the start of the race.
Turn 1 is not flat, but there is limited braking with the sort of downforce that F1 cars have.
Ayrton Senna deliberately ran into Alain Prost, and pretty much admitted it some time later, claiming that he was angry because the grid sides had been swapped on the track. He saw that as yet more cheating by Alain Prost, lobbying Jean Marie Balestre, who was in charge of the FIA at the time.

[Andres125sx]

"Prost made a better start but in the first corner I was coming faster than him" Ayrton Senna

As you say T1 does not require braking, once Prost was completely in front of Senna at the middle of the straight he didn´t need to leave any space. Senna dive bombed into T1 because he knew if both DNF he secured the title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JknW7h8DS0s

Anycase it´s a bit absurd of a debate, do you really think Prost would crash intentionally into Senna when that meant the title went to the brazilian? Prost might be many things, but stupid is not one of them


Disclaimer: IMHO this was karma, Prost did earn it after intentionally crashing into his teammate in 89

Prost did indeed get a better start , and did indeed pull fully ahead, but then Senna pulled into his slipstream and got enough of a run/boost, to pull up beside him. Prost must give space to a car next to him, he didn't and caused the collision. Look at the cars behind them, much wider approach angle.

Prost was usually intelligent, but he was stupid with this move. There was no dive bomb, Senna was positioning himself to be in a better passing position for a few corners further ahead, but prost ran him onto the curbs and Senna refused to yield. Senna could have avoided the collision, but it is clearly prost who caused it.

Except Senna never was beside Prost

[Just_a_fan]

If he wasn't alongside, how did they touch side-to-side?

[Wass85]

If he wasn't alongside, how did they touch side-to-side?

Because Senna didn't lift and steamrolled in to Prost....

[El Scorchio]

'I was f***ed many times by the system. I told myself, "Today, there's no way." Today has to be my way. I don't care what happens.'

'It has to be my way.'

The righteous words of God.

[munudeges]

Yes.

[Polite]

"Prost made a better start but in the first corner I was coming faster than him" Ayrton Senna

As you say T1 does not require braking, once Prost was completely in front of Senna at the middle of the straight he didn´t need to leave any space. Senna dive bombed into T1 because he knew if both DNF he secured the title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JknW7h8DS0s

Anycase it´s a bit absurd of a debate, do you really think Prost would crash intentionally into Senna when that meant the title went to the brazilian? Prost might be many things, but stupid is not one of them


Disclaimer: IMHO this was karma, Prost did earn it after intentionally crashing into his teammate in 89

Prost did indeed get a better start , and did indeed pull fully ahead, but then Senna pulled into his slipstream and got enough of a run/boost, to pull up beside him. Prost must give space to a car next to him, he didn't and caused the collision. Look at the cars behind them, much wider approach angle.

Prost was usually intelligent, but he was stupid with this move. There was no dive bomb, Senna was positioning himself to be in a better passing position for a few corners further ahead, but prost ran him onto the curbs and Senna refused to yield. Senna could have avoided the collision, but it is clearly prost who caused it.

these was no rule about "Prost must give space to a car next to him"... that rule comes many years after. So Prost had the trajectory right..

your analysis is based on rules that did not exist at the time

[Just_a_fan]

If he wasn't alongside, how did they touch side-to-side?

Because Senna didn't lift and steamrolled in to Prost....

Nope.

Prost did the same he did the year before and turned in. This time, thankfully, Balestre was unable to save him.

If talent was all that mattered, Senna would have had 4 titles. But politics reigned and Prost was helped to number three. Balestre tried to help him to number four by swapping the grid. It was so blatant it was sad.

[strad]

Ask Ron Dennis what Prost said pre race.
Look; Senna was a great talent but he wasn't a saint. His antic's go back to FF and F3.
Ask Calvin Fish or Martin Brundle how many times he had them and others off back in those days.
Fish: "he had me off. We were both on the front row... Ayrton took the lead at Snetterton, my team was hooked up better and about six laps into the race going down the back straight I was fastest and I moved out of his slip stream to go by him. He moved over and kept pushing and pushing and pushing. I was along side the guy and he pushed me right on to the dirt. I bounced 10 feet up...……
Senna's career from then till the end consisted of the same tactic. yield to me or have a wreck.
A tactic that was picked up by Michael and has become common these days which is the point of the thread.
I appreciate his talent but I was around and can separate the man from glowing remembrances.

[Lotus102]

If he wasn't alongside, how did they touch side-to-side?

Because Senna didn't lift and steamrolled in to Prost....

No, that's not correct. Check the footage. Prost moved to the outside before the corner, and Senna, moving slightly faster in the slipstream, got his car partly up the inside. But he was not moving any faster than Prost when the Ferrari moved back to take the racing line. Prost's front right contacted the McLaren ahead of Senna's left rear. Berger actually went into the corner faster than both of them and made it through OK (he went off there on the next lap, but only because there was sand from the gravel trap on the road). It wasn't the torpedo move people make it out to be. Just wasn't