Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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Xwang
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Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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What do you think about this Seidls' idea?
https://translate.google.it/translate?h ... 06574.html

My opinion is that it won't work because a single man can't control teams with such great staff and resources and that the only ways to make sure that each team follows the rules are:
1) the regulations should limit and prohibit only what the FIA commissioners can control over the weekend
or
2) keep pretending to limit what F1 teams can do outside race weekends and put huge rewards on everyone who, working for a team or one of their suppliers, provides enough proven information to prove and punish the tricks

The problem with the second option is that F1 teams can apply huge penalties in their NDAs that are greater than the FIA rewards and therefore there is no certainty that an informant will report behaviour contrary to regulations.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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One man per factory? He's going to be very fit running around checking everything. For example, the Mercedes GP factory is 60000m2 (just under 14 acres) spread across 7 buildings most of which are multi-storey. And that's without the engine factory at Brixworth.

Street view from the entrance and it doesn't show the largest building: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0226614 ... 312!8i6656

And as for one man in Maranello? That place is even bigger!
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Moore77
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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If ever this is looked at seriously, FIA should reach out to CIA who can provide highly trained spies who can then be used to induce conflicts in a dominant team to disrupt the organization, induce some protests/strikes in the Factory, create chaos and low and behold, FIA can hold back Mercs or any other team that tries to dominate the sport (or even think of dominating). Those spies will automatically get well funded by FIA, which is pretty easy by taxing extra on race tickets at every venue, IN THE INTEREST OF SPORT. Then next step is easy, bring in Vinny (Vince McMahon).
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nzjrs
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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Xwang wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:59 am
The problem with the second option is that F1 teams can apply huge penalties in their NDAs that are greater than the FIA rewards and therefore there is no certainty that an informant will report behaviour contrary to regulations.
I don't imagine enforcing NDA clauses in whistle-blower situations would be possible. Even if one were worried, one could report suspicions to the FIA in a way that does not disclose any commercially sensitive or protected information.

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SiLo
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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Why would an embedded FIA person be a whistleblower? They would literally be reporting back to the FIA but be boots on the ground to keep the teams in check. Yes they won't catch everything, but being there in the factory makes it a lot harder for the teams to cheat.
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Manoah2u
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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This would be no different to the 'food inspectors' visiting slaughterhouses. They'll get all sorts of bribes to keep their mouths shut and only report positive things to their 'leader'.
it makes no sense and has no connection with reality.

A clear case of 'who watches the watchmen'.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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Big Tea
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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I actually think its a good idea. Maybe not every factory, but every team. Also, I think not to enforce regs but to be consulted on them. 10-20 full time Fia reps, doing not only this, but other FIA things such as promotion, would probably work out costing far less than much of the legal wrangling that comes from rules not being clear.

If a team has a need for clarification, the rep is consulted, and if he can not give a black/white decision it can be perused 'back at base' in a timely fashion.
There can be an eliment ow wander about and check things are as they seem, but lets face it, if you know who is looking you know how to hide it.
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Big Tea
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:05 pm
This would be no different to the 'food inspectors' visiting slaughterhouses. They'll get all sorts of bribes to keep their mouths shut and only report positive things to their 'leader'.
it makes no sense and has no connection with reality.

A clear case of 'who watches the watchmen
'.
I am sure that any suspicion tipped to the press will get that done soon enough. The teams will be watching eachother as they do now.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

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nzjrs
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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SiLo wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:00 pm
Why would an embedded FIA person be a whistleblower? They would literally be reporting back to the FIA but be boots on the ground to keep the teams in check. Yes they won't catch everything, but being there in the factory makes it a lot harder for the teams to cheat.
I agree. I was at least referring to Xwang's #2 which was his alternative to Seidls embedded FIA person - unless I misunderstand Xwang suggestion.

Manoah2u
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:13 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:05 pm
This would be no different to the 'food inspectors' visiting slaughterhouses. They'll get all sorts of bribes to keep their mouths shut and only report positive things to their 'leader'.
it makes no sense and has no connection with reality.

A clear case of 'who watches the watchmen
'.
I am sure that any suspicion tipped to the press will get that done soon enough. The teams will be watching eachother as they do now.
In other words, it makes no difference as it's exactly the same right now.
Why go through all that hassle if it'll bring no difference whatsoever.

Just concider the 'secret FIA-Ferrari deal'.

Nobody but some people at Ferrari and some people at FIA knows about this deal.
Hell it could be between just Todt and Binotto for all that matters.

And does anybody outside of that combo really knows what we're dealing with? no.
All we know and see is that Ferrari is by no means as competitive as they were in 2019.

ALSO, the idea that teams would be harder to 'cheat' because of some FIA guy present, no.
Racing Point is not actually cheating. The problem is not that there wasn't/isn't a FIA guy walking around their premises, the 'problem' is the rules leaving margins to exploit.

The sport is already too much controlled and regulated.
Posting FIA 'guarddogs' is only going to get it more complicated, supervised, and under more 'control'.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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Big Tea
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:30 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:13 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:05 pm
This would be no different to the 'food inspectors' visiting slaughterhouses. They'll get all sorts of bribes to keep their mouths shut and only report positive things to their 'leader'.
it makes no sense and has no connection with reality.

A clear case of 'who watches the watchmen
'.
I am sure that any suspicion tipped to the press will get that done soon enough. The teams will be watching eachother as they do now.
In other words, it makes no difference as it's exactly the same right now.
Why go through all that hassle if it'll bring no difference whatsoever.

Just concider the 'secret FIA-Ferrari deal'.

Nobody but some people at Ferrari and some people at FIA knows about this deal.
Hell it could be between just Todt and Binotto for all that matters.

And does anybody outside of that combo really knows what we're dealing with? no.
All we know and see is that Ferrari is by no means as competitive as they were in 2019.

ALSO, the idea that teams would be harder to 'cheat' because of some FIA guy present, no.
Racing Point is not actually cheating. The problem is not that there wasn't/isn't a FIA guy walking around their premises, the 'problem' is the rules leaving margins to exploit.

The sport is already too much controlled and regulated.
Posting FIA 'guarddogs' is only going to get it more complicated, supervised, and under more 'control'.
I would like to think anyone in that position had integrity. The FIA get lots of stick, but usually from biased or ill informed people . They often seem to work with their thumb in their **** but I think it is misrepresented much of the time. They could not allow this to happen as it would destroy what reputation they have.
As you say, it is already to a huge extent self policing, but a person on site would focus it. ( Note, I do not mean as a spy, but as a consultant, see my post)
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

Manoah2u
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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By the way, it's an endless circle anyway.

Just concider the upcoming 'budget cieling'.

Drivers salaries are not included in this 'budget'. In other words, let's concider that every team can spend a maximum of 100 million on the CAR.
I believe that'll greatly influence in F1 turning into a A1GP like spec series, which i hate and is anti-F1 in all its means, but then if the cars are the same, it's down to the driver.
Since that is not included in the budget, then to make a difference, the teams that CAN spend a lot of money (Mercedes/Ferrari) will pay 100 million plus for a guy like Hamilton,
whilst small, problematic teams like Williams must do with paydrivers like Latifi. They'll still end up in the exact same situation they're in now.
The only losers in this case is the sport itself, turning F1 into a spec-series instead of what it should be.

Add to that there are a LOT of loopholes to exploit even with this budget cieling.

For example: if drivers aren't included in the budget, are engineers?
If engineers are included in this 100 million budget, then the paycheck of Newey will become a lot harder to concider.
How can you fix that? Actually, pretty simple.

Concider Newey's paycheck is 10 million annually.

RedBull fires Newey.

RedBull F1 decides to sign a contract with a firm that has engineers in it's portfolio and offers 1/2 a million for that role.

Dietrich Mateschitz starts a new firm under it's umbrella called 'Rote Stier Engineer House' (redbull in german).
It is NOT under the F1 team's umbrella, and it's base is not in Brackley.

Mateschitz offers Newey 9,5 million to become a member of his 'Rote Stier Engineer House' firm.
Newey signs and now has a membership on this firm/club if you may.

RedBull F1 (let's say Horner), based in brackley, offers 'Rote Stier Engineer House' 1/2 a million for designing a F1 car.
'Rote Stier Engineer House' agrees, and since they have Newey aboard, Newey is going to pen down a F1 car for RedBull.

Total cost of this 'game' : 10 million, the same paycheck RedBull paid before, for the same person with the same results.

total 'budget' RedBull F1 rightfully presents to the FIA : 0,5 million.
total money Newey recieved: 10 million.
total money Mateschitz spent: 10 million.

Did anything change? NOPE.

Does the 'budget cieling' thus make any sense? NOPE.

Is the FIA able to do anything about that? NOPE.
Would it make any difference if the FIA gets a guy who can look into ALL the financial records of a 'stable' ? NOPE.

Would it make things unneccesary complicated and more costly? YEP.

We're talking about how things in F1 get too expensive and now we want to make it even more expensive by putting a FIA guy at every factory,
somebody who wants to get paid. a function that doesn't exist yet, and that money needs to come from somewhere.

Again, it makes zero sense whatsoever.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Manoah2u
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:36 pm

I would like to think anyone in that position had integrity. The FIA get lots of stick, but usually from biased or ill informed people . They often seem to work with their thumb in their **** but I think it is misrepresented much of the time. They could not allow this to happen as it would destroy what reputation they have.
As you say, it is already to a huge extent self policing, but a person on site would focus it. ( Note, I do not mean as a spy, but as a consultant, see my post)
I understand your point, and i agree to a degree, but the truth is, it doesn't happen that way in real life.
And what reputation does the FIA really have?

Look at the stewards alone, they can't even 'penalize' for the same infractions on different drivers.
Again, how is FIA's reputation with the secret Ferrari deal? Remember the Mercedes-Pirelli test 'conspiracy'?
And if we look at integrity.....concider what integrity one would expect from something like the FIFA.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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nzjrs
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:49 pm
By the way, it's an endless circle anyway.

Just concider the upcoming 'budget cieling'.

For example: if drivers aren't included in the budget, are engineers?

... clipping large example for brevity ...
Addressing just one way this is not as impossible as you make it out to be

I believe there are forensic accountants that are as good when compared to regular accountants as F1 drivers are compared to normal drivers. Such people would laugh at your suggestion as trivially easy to detect.

Providing F1 can pay for these accounts, or indirectly vial Deloitte or similar, its not impossible.

(other ways of enforcement are whistleblowing and other secondary strategies as appear to enforce the current technical regulations)

Jolle
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Re: Seidl's idea: "An FIA man in every factory"

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FIrst of, I don't think the budget ceiling is there to bring the field closer together but to boost the value of F1. In other words, to reduce costs and keep income the same, you're worth more. The whole "leveling the playground" is just a big smoke screen. At the end, there are four teams that in it to win (Renault, Mercedes, Ferrari and RedBull) and six to make money.

I also think the biggest problem isn't how to police this policy, a good accounting firm can go trough the books during the season. Of course, a team could commit fraude... but that's the same kind of cheating to run an illegal car.

The biggest problem will be how, with all the different factory structures, to add value to some things.

Lets take something simple like a wheel bearing. You can buy one off the shelve of SKF, and pay 100 euro, as a team like Williams could design their own and that would cost 300 euros. Mercedes could ask their parent company to design one, and pay 50 euro for it. Ferrari has a sponsor deal with SKF and get custom designed bearings for free.

Before the FIA makes guidelines how to handle parts and costs like this, a budget cap is impossible