Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Stu
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Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Why is this a thing?
The cars that experienced tyre failures had run a high number of laps on a track that had seen two safety car periods due to accidents/collisions and front wing failure. One of the drivers (Bottas) has been reporting vibration issues for several laps.
Two of the cars affected appeared to be running with blistered tyres for quite a while. Now, we KNOW that the tyre supplier recommends maximums for camber and minimums for tyre pressure, but is it a coincidence that both Mercedes suffered failures? They hadn’t been particularly pushed at all during the race, but presumably both were operating on the maximum camber allowed by Pirelli.
If DAS works as I believe it to, operation of the system for prolonged periods to “get heat into the tyres”, such as during safety car periods would have the same effect on the tyres as running with more camber, wouldn’t it??
That would make it an operational (team) issue, as opposed to a tyre manufacturer issue....
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Deadpool
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Pirelli is the WORST tyre suplier EVER in F1. The day they leave F1 will be a good day. Really, really good day!When Michelin and Bridgestone hear what nonsense they're talking about they're probably rolling with laughter all day.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Deadpool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:43 am
Pirelli is the WORST tyre suplier EVER in F1. The day they leave F1 will be a good day. Really, really good day!When Michelin and Bridgestone hear what nonsense they're talking about they're probably rolling with laughter all day.
Such a shame, there has been no chance of alternative tenders winning. :?

Image
Pirelli has been chosen over Hankook as Formula 1’s official tyre supplier for the 2020 to 2023 seasons, as RaceFans revealed yesterday.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/25/pir ... pply-deal/

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jjn9128
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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I dont think I heard any of the teams/drivers criticise the tyres. It's just from fans who don't have data.

TBH it's reputation, from the early days of Pirelli they had that weird thermal behaviour and extreme drop off and the teams/drivers all complained and fans picked up on that. Similarly when the teams were running the tyres backwards and had all those failures they complained about Pirelli and the fans picked up on it. Then there was Spa (2013?) where Pirelli blamed punctures on cuts in the tyres and the teams and press were skeptical - the FIA changed the skid plate material though - but fans picked up on it. Similarly the minimum pressure and camber limits caused some consternation - like having a design limit is a bad thing. Fans, or should I say a lot of fans but not all, are very good at parroting back what the teams tell them. I see it with aero stuff where teams say something not entirely accurate in the press and that becomes fact.

That said the hard should have been able to complete 50 laps, basically the whole race, but it's probable Pirelli's investigation will find cuts in the tyres - like Red Bull claim were on Verstappen's tyres. There will be skepticism about this result among fans as there was in Spa.
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SiLo
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Stu wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:34 am
Why is this a thing?
The cars that experienced tyre failures had run a high number of laps on a track that had seen two safety car periods due to accidents/collisions and front wing failure. One of the drivers (Bottas) has been reporting vibration issues for several laps.
Two of the cars affected appeared to be running with blistered tyres for quite a while. Now, we KNOW that the tyre supplier recommends maximums for camber and minimums for tyre pressure, but is it a coincidence that both Mercedes suffered failures? They hadn’t been particularly pushed at all during the race, but presumably both were operating on the maximum camber allowed by Pirelli.
If DAS works as I believe it to, operation of the system for prolonged periods to “get heat into the tyres”, such as during safety car periods would have the same effect on the tyres as running with more camber, wouldn’t it??
That would make it an operational (team) issue, as opposed to a tyre manufacturer issue....
The bias in this post is incredible. Pirelli said 40 laps, they did around 36-38 WITH safety car periods. When they say 40 laps they don't mean they will completely fail and fall apart, just that the tyre won't have any grip left and will become very slow.

This also isn't the first time we have seen multiple Pirello failures in Silverstone. Unless you run the tyre down to the carcass, it absolutely should not fail in this way unless cut by debris.
Felipe Baby!

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Fulcrum
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:53 am
unless cut by debris.
Which seems highly likely, considering the circumstances.

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Phil
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:53 am
The bias in this post is incredible. Pirelli said 40 laps, they did around 36-38 WITH safety car periods. When they say 40 laps they don't mean they will completely fail and fall apart, just that the tyre won't have any grip left and will become very slow.

This also isn't the first time we have seen multiple Pirello failures in Silverstone. Unless you run the tyre down to the carcass, it absolutely should not fail in this way unless cut by debris.
Pirellis predictions are just that... predictions. Estimates. Not all cars put the tires under the same load and not all drivers put the tires under the same strain. Some took extra care, taking out speed in the high speed turns (Ferrari), others did not. Then there is also the strain that hitting curbs put the tires under.

It's impossible to ensure that all tires will 'survive' N number of laps without knowing exactly how close to the limit every driver will be pushing their cars.

As for the failures; while debris could be a big element, the simple fact that it hit the front-left tire (the one under most load) is suspect and suggests that tire wear and fatigue could easily be just as responsible.

Here's some good info about the standing waves as a possible cause for the failures:


(time 37:33)

And for those now quick to blame Pirelli; Pirelli did design more durable tires (with a different construction) for 2020, but it was the teams that opted NOT to use them. As with any part; if you run it closer to the limit, then you are going to run a higher risk of something failing.
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jjn9128
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Phil wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:12 am
And for those now quick to blame Pirelli; Pirelli did design more durable tires (with a different construction) for 2020, but it was the teams that opted NOT to use them. As with any part; if you run it closer to the limit, then you are going to run a higher risk of something failing.
This is a very good point that I'd forgotten. Perhaps why the teams were more contrite than normal. Pirelli has the ammunition to fight back.
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notsofast
notsofast
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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The only mistake that Pirelli are making is that they tell the fans how many laps a tire will last. They have no way of knowing such a thing.

Pirelli provide the teams with technical specifications. The teams then need to combine that information with their own information regarding downforce, oversteer, understeer, etc, etc, to figure out how long they can make the tires last. Mercedes simply messed up in that regard.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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I can only assume they couldn't or didn't factor in extra stress on the tyres from this year's faster and loaded with more downforce cars when making their 40 lap prediction? Interesting it happened to both mercs at almost the same time. Suggests the tyre just can't cope with the forces that car is able to subject it to. It also could be that the Merc analysts got it wrong. What they (Pirelli) need is to have a look at the hards which came off every car and see if there are any trends or correlations.

For everyone saying this season is boring, perhaps this could be a cat amongst the pigeons if the Merc works it's tyres TOO hard at some tracks and they are forced to run a less than optimal strategy? There could be some exciting scenarios like Hungary 2019 where they are making one more stop and then trying to catch Verstappen et al in the closing laps.

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SiLo
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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The issue really is that not only did the tyres fail, there weren't really any warnings about it. Bottas seemed to get the most warnings with some vibrations but the rest didn't.
Felipe Baby!

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nevill3
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Sainz had the vibrations earlier too.
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holeindalip
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Last years gp had the same tires, Hamilton did 40 laps without the pace car and set the fastest lap of the race on the last lap 27.3 verstappen on fresh tires did a 27.0, I don’t think the mercs were pushing the pace Any where near this times in the race 28.xxx’s every once in awhile. There had to have been debris or a curb or something else going on....

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Sieper
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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nevill3 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:05 pm
Sainz had the vibrations earlier too.
So, no smooth operator, my baby has good vibrations?
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mertol
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Re: Immediately blaming the tyres...

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Pirelli always with the random excuses. The curbs' fault, the number of laps' fault, the temperature's fault, low pressure's fault. Never their shitty product's fault. Tires are supposed to become slower near the end of their lives not randomly explode. They have raced at silverstone for so many years and pirelli still doesn't have a clue how to make a tire for this track.
Teams are no longer criticizing them because they are either silenced by lawyers or they saw complaining doesn't help.