When is a works team a works team?

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raymondu999
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When is a works team a works team?

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This has got my curiosity piqued a bit and whilst it’s less technical I would like to pose this question.

There are, I think, 3 teams that anyone will accept are works teams. Ferrari, Renault, Mercedes.

There is a big hoohah that next year, when RP becomes Aston Martin, it will be a “works” outfit - as Aston Martin’s works team. Some would also call Red Bull the Honda “works” team.

So what exactly is the definition? Obviously, teams like Williams, Haas, and AlphaTauri are obvious non-works outfits.

So... McLaren, Red Bull, AlfaRomeo.

What makes a team a works outfit? in the past I thought if a team makes its own engine + car, it’s a works outfit. Red Bull is partnered with their engine supplier and would as such be more of a works team. But McLaren is also a car manufacturer- albeit an engine customer. Aston would be in the same boat - they would use Mercedes engines, and build their own chassis. So why is Aston going to be called a works team, and McLaren not?
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jjn9128
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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When they're directly tied to an OEM. Red Bull is the Honda works team because they are using and working to specify the Honda power unit- in symbiosis. Toro Tauri on the other hand are less hands on so are a customer of Honda, even though the Red Bull team is their parent and they'll definitely be asking for improvements on the engine side, they're just lower priority than the main team.

Aston Martin is a tricky one... technically I guess their ownership means they are directly tied to the OEM, but they will be using Mercedes powerplants and there's not really a lot of technical crossover. I'd see Aston as more of a title/naming sponsor.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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I would say that the "factory/manufacturer teams" are Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault. They make the whole car including the PU.

If the team and the engine supplier are shared title on the car, then they're a "works team". So RedBull Honda would be so considered, just as McLaren Honda or Williams Renault were back in the day.

Everyone else is a customer team sourcing the engine and / other parts from a third party.

So:
Factory/Manufacturer
Works
Customer

But that's just me. 8)
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Big Tea
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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I would see it as engine supply and chassis build and control of funding and advertising coming from the name in the title.
Honda make Red Bull's engine, and no doubt fund and supply other things, but it is their own build chassis and Honda (supposedly) has no control over drivers or spending. So I do not consider RbR as a works team, but a 'primary' Honda team.

Racing point, as long as they have a Merc engine can not be a works team either.
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Jolle
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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There are several ways to come to the "works team" status.

In general you can say there are engine suppliers and constructors, even when they bare the same name. Mercedes and Renault have a history that goes straight back to BAR and Benneton. When Renault won their last titles with the Enstone team, they were "just' suppying their own engine to their own constructor, no special connection like we see at Mercedes these days or Ferrari.

Sometimes a constructor is almost hired by a engine manufacturer to develop their car, like Williams during the Renault and BMW days and McLaren during their last episode with Honda. A manufacturer can also take a stake in a constructor and keep it's original name, like McLaren with Mercedes.

When we had many engine manufactures and specifications, there was much more a competition with who got which spec and how and if it was paid for. The contract with the highest spec was more or less works status, for instance the Ford Ztecs in the back of the Bennetons were of a later spec then those in Senna's McLaren.

Last one is a true partnership, like Renault with RedBull, Honda with RedBull and Honda with McLaren during the 80-90's.

I think the easiest way to make the devide in works and non works teams is which team is the main team from the engine manufacturer. And in these days, for which car it's designed for. So, Mercedes - Brackley, Renault - Enstone, Honda- RedBull and Ferrari-Ferrari.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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The level of involvement and investment maybe.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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It's all about the money, RP/AM will be paying for engines, so not a works team.

RBR don't pay Honda, therefore works team.

4 works teams Merc, Ferrari, Renault and Red bull/Honda.

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raymondu999
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:44 am
I think the easiest way to make the devide in works and non works teams is which team is the main team from the engine manufacturer. And in these days, for which car it's designed for. So, Mercedes - Brackley, Renault - Enstone, Honda- RedBull and Ferrari-Ferrari.
Ahh that's a more workable dichotomy I think. Look at the engines and see which teams they design the engines for... rather than "supply" engines to. By this definition of course McLaren and Aston Martin (both which are, of course, road car manufacturers, albeit very niche ones) are NOT works teams even though they are "manufacturer"-backed.
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NL_Fer
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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In a works relation, the engine supplier gives the engines for free and in a healthy one they tailor the design to the constructor preferences.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: When is a works team a works team?

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:26 am
It's all about the money, RP/AM will be paying for engines, so not a works team.

RBR don't pay Honda, therefore works team.

4 works teams Merc, Ferrari, Renault and Red bull/Honda.
Do either of the Alfa or Alpha pay for engines? I don't think so. Maybe they should be in their own category.