Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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Nickel
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Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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so multiple times this year there has been on-board footage and radio chatter during the cool down period where the driver is instructed to use the drinks bottle. I haven't seen this discussed and if the forthcoming conclusion is obvious or obviously off base then I'm sure it will be clarified.

This year there is a minimum driver weight if I'm not mistaken? Underweight drivers meant to add ballast to the seat? Perhaps this started last year, I can't recall. It would seem to me this drink instruction is to ensure driver doesn't come in underweight? It would be logical to assume the drinks bottle is positioned more advantageously than the ballast mounted to the seat?

Am I missing something? How long until a driver comes in underweight after a long hot race where they actually consume the whole drinks bottle if the margins are actually that close?

Jolle
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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Better be safe then sorry. Half a kilo is a lot in F1. If you can add that somewhere there is an advantage.

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Big Tea
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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Nickel wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:39 pm
so multiple times this year there has been on-board footage and radio chatter during the cool down period where the driver is instructed to use the drinks bottle. I haven't seen this discussed and if the forthcoming conclusion is obvious or obviously off base then I'm sure it will be clarified.

This year there is a minimum driver weight if I'm not mistaken? Underweight drivers meant to add ballast to the seat? Perhaps this started last year, I can't recall. It would seem to me this drink instruction is to ensure driver doesn't come in underweight? It would be logical to assume the drinks bottle is positioned more advantageously than the ballast mounted to the seat?

Am I missing something? How long until a driver comes in underweight after a long hot race where they actually consume the whole drinks bottle if the margins are actually that close?
The driver is weighed after the race and his weight added to the car. fluids can be 'topped up' on the car, so the drinks bottle refilled (I assume?) so they gain the replaced weight. 1kg in driver +1kg in car 'topped up'

(foil hat time. :twisted: if the drinks bottle is 3 kg and was never full anyway....)
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Nickel
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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I'm pretty sure they changed the weight rules recently to reduce the penalty for bigger drivers. Driver weight is still part of the car total but in addition, there is a minimum driver weight with the difference made up by adding ballast to the seat instead of wherever the team chooses. I have no idea how this is measured but I seem to recall reading about this a while ago. Am I mistaken?

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Big Tea
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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Nickel wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:24 am
I'm pretty sure they changed the weight rules recently to reduce the penalty for bigger drivers. Driver weight is still part of the car total but in addition, there is a minimum driver weight with the difference made up by adding ballast to the seat instead of wherever the team chooses. I have no idea how this is measured but I seem to recall reading about this a while ago. Am I mistaken?
I think you are correct, but it still means that if the weight was not in the car or driver. and is replaced, it was not there. I do not know what the maximum weight is, as there is probably a limit to it.
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Baulz
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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I would expect any water left by the end of the race would be pretty hot and not something the drivers would want to drink. Smart thinking by the team though to top up the driver weight.

On a similar topic we always hear in the hot races that a driver will lose several kg of weight. How is this planned for as far as post race driver weight? It must be variable by driver and temperature.

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hollus
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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Wouldn't any weight the drives "loses" during the race be in the form of sweat and largely "stay" in the driver's suit?
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Jolle
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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The drink used to be behind the driver, and cockpits are pretty hot... these days they are near the drivers feet (at least, I assume that because of the recent radio messages of drivers having wet feet). It’s got a bit of cooling there.
I don’t know if they are allowed to top off fluids these days after it was misused as “brake cooling” during the eighties to run under weight.
In hot races the suit will retain some of the sweat of the drivers but not all. It’s just how close you’re playing it. It’s also a bit embarrassing to get a DQ if you don’t have the drink (or it’s leaking).
It’s more for safety, better to be 500g inside the rules then 20. Plus, as we’ve seen with I think Ocon a few races ago, a great way to shut up your driver 😂

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Big Tea
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:58 pm
The drink used to be behind the driver, and cockpits are pretty hot... these days they are near the drivers feet (at least, I assume that because of the recent radio messages of drivers having wet feet). It’s got a bit of cooling there.
I don’t know if they are allowed to top off fluids these days after it was misused as “brake cooling” during the eighties to run under weight.
In hot races the suit will retain some of the sweat of the drivers but not all. It’s just how close you’re playing it. It’s also a bit embarrassing to get a DQ if you don’t have the drink (or it’s leaking).
It’s more for safety, better to be 500g inside the rules then 20. Plus, as we’ve seen with I think Ocon a few races ago, a great way to shut up your driver 😂
What I mean, slightly tongue in cheek, is that it being said on the radio covers for if it is not there at all, as the drivers weight loss can be replaced once he is out of the car.

This is old now but..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d6nu0ofQaA
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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Nickel wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:39 pm
so multiple times this year there has been on-board footage and radio chatter during the cool down period where the driver is instructed to use the drinks bottle. I haven't seen this discussed and if the forthcoming conclusion is obvious or obviously off base then I'm sure it will be clarified.

This year there is a minimum driver weight if I'm not mistaken? Underweight drivers meant to add ballast to the seat? Perhaps this started last year, I can't recall. It would seem to me this drink instruction is to ensure driver doesn't come in underweight? It would be logical to assume the drinks bottle is positioned more advantageously than the ballast mounted to the seat?

Am I missing something? How long until a driver comes in underweight after a long hot race where they actually consume the whole drinks bottle if the margins are actually that close?
Let me try....Let's examine where the sweat and exhaled water moisture goes and whether the drinks bottle is counted towards the car plus driver weight.

The fire suits are quite thick so you can see the drivers awash with sweat after they come out of the car so most of that weight is still maintained a small amount that is soaked into the suits evaporate. The other water loss is through respiration.

Ok lets say you have a generous 1L drinks bottle. In a hot race the drivers lose up to 2kg of water weight. He drinks back 1kg of water. Let say his sweat contained in the suit is 1.5kg the other 0.5kg evaporates. So that is an overall loss of 0.5kg to the car + driver.

Correct me if I am wrong here... If the water bottle is counted in the weight of car plus driver this means the package is 0.5kg lighter after the race. If the water bottle is not counted, then this means the car starts the race 1kg heaver and finishes the race 0.5 kg heavier.

The other factor is oil burn. The cars are allowed to burn oil at a certain kg/100km. I believe it was 0.3kg? So this means approximately 1kg of oil would be lost from the car at the end of the race.

What this means to me is that the teams have to be on the safe side to ensure that the cars are 0.5kg (if no drink bottle counted) to 1.5 kg heavier (if drinks bottle counted) without fuel.
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Big Tea
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:12 pm
Nickel wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:39 pm
so multiple times this year there has been on-board footage and radio chatter during the cool down period where the driver is instructed to use the drinks bottle. I haven't seen this discussed and if the forthcoming conclusion is obvious or obviously off base then I'm sure it will be clarified.

This year there is a minimum driver weight if I'm not mistaken? Underweight drivers meant to add ballast to the seat? Perhaps this started last year, I can't recall. It would seem to me this drink instruction is to ensure driver doesn't come in underweight? It would be logical to assume the drinks bottle is positioned more advantageously than the ballast mounted to the seat?

Am I missing something? How long until a driver comes in underweight after a long hot race where they actually consume the whole drinks bottle if the margins are actually that close?
Let me try....Let's examine where the sweat and exhaled water moisture goes and whether the drinks bottle is counted towards the car plus driver weight.

The fire suits are quite thick so you can see the drivers awash with sweat after they come out of the car so most of that weight is still maintained a small amount that is soaked into the suits evaporate. The other water loss is through respiration.

Ok lets say you have a generous 1L drinks bottle. In a hot race the drivers lose up to 2kg of water weight. He drinks back 1kg of water. Let say his sweat contained in the suit is 1.5kg the other 0.5kg evaporates. So that is an overall loss of 0.5kg to the car + driver.

Correct me if I am wrong here... If the water bottle is counted in the weight of car plus driver this means the package is 0.5kg lighter after the race. If the water bottle is not counted, then this means the car starts the race 1kg heaver and finishes the race 0.5 kg heavier.

The other factor is oil burn. The cars are allowed to burn oil at a certain kg/100km. I believe it was 0.3kg? So this means approximately 1kg of oil would be lost from the car at the end of the race.

What this means to me is that the teams have to be on the safe side to ensure that the cars are 0.5kg (if no drink bottle counted) to 1.5 kg heavier (if drinks bottle counted) without fuel.
Remember, fluids can be topped up (to what I suppose is the 'presented' park ferme weight) before weighting.
Again, I assume also allowed if the weight during random weighing is short. ( Leclerk excess fuel??)

But the weight of the car at start of qualli is X. of which 1kg (1ltr) is drivers drink. If the driver 'uses' the bottle and it accidentally runs out through a hole in the floor ( :mrgreen: ) the car was actually X -1kg. But the team is allowed to replace that 1kg after the driver has left the car.

Passing thought, is this why we never see drivers running off to the toilet straight from the winners section?
They all drink several bottles of water and was there not an occasion where several bottles of water were pored into a drivers race suit and towel before he was weighed?
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adrianjordan
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Re: Driver weight and the drinks bottle

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:37 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:12 pm
Nickel wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:39 pm
so multiple times this year there has been on-board footage and radio chatter during the cool down period where the driver is instructed to use the drinks bottle. I haven't seen this discussed and if the forthcoming conclusion is obvious or obviously off base then I'm sure it will be clarified.

This year there is a minimum driver weight if I'm not mistaken? Underweight drivers meant to add ballast to the seat? Perhaps this started last year, I can't recall. It would seem to me this drink instruction is to ensure driver doesn't come in underweight? It would be logical to assume the drinks bottle is positioned more advantageously than the ballast mounted to the seat?

Am I missing something? How long until a driver comes in underweight after a long hot race where they actually consume the whole drinks bottle if the margins are actually that close?
Let me try....Let's examine where the sweat and exhaled water moisture goes and whether the drinks bottle is counted towards the car plus driver weight.

The fire suits are quite thick so you can see the drivers awash with sweat after they come out of the car so most of that weight is still maintained a small amount that is soaked into the suits evaporate. The other water loss is through respiration.

Ok lets say you have a generous 1L drinks bottle. In a hot race the drivers lose up to 2kg of water weight. He drinks back 1kg of water. Let say his sweat contained in the suit is 1.5kg the other 0.5kg evaporates. So that is an overall loss of 0.5kg to the car + driver.

Correct me if I am wrong here... If the water bottle is counted in the weight of car plus driver this means the package is 0.5kg lighter after the race. If the water bottle is not counted, then this means the car starts the race 1kg heaver and finishes the race 0.5 kg heavier.

The other factor is oil burn. The cars are allowed to burn oil at a certain kg/100km. I believe it was 0.3kg? So this means approximately 1kg of oil would be lost from the car at the end of the race.

What this means to me is that the teams have to be on the safe side to ensure that the cars are 0.5kg (if no drink bottle counted) to 1.5 kg heavier (if drinks bottle counted) without fuel.
Remember, fluids can be topped up (to what I suppose is the 'presented' park ferme weight) before weighting.
Again, I assume also allowed if the weight during random weighing is short. ( Leclerk excess fuel??)

But the weight of the car at start of qualli is X. of which 1kg (1ltr) is drivers drink. If the driver 'uses' the bottle and it accidentally runs out through a hole in the floor ( :mrgreen: ) the car was actually X -1kg. But the team is allowed to replace that 1kg after the driver has left the car.

Passing thought, is this why we never see drivers running off to the toilet straight from the winners section?
They all drink several bottles of water and was there not an occasion where several bottles of water were pored into a drivers race suit and towel before he was weighed?
Most of these drivers will be effectively dehydrated by the end of a race. They won't NEED to pee. There are exceptions of course and we've heard of drivers just going in the car in the past....which makes a white race suit a brave choice 🤔
Bring on the EV revolution!!