Honda leaving F1.

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piast9
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:00 am
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:59 am
Maybe it's time for Red Bull to build their own engines! How?

Engine development is going to get more and more freezed by 2022 onwards...so what if they kept Honda's engines from 2021 onwards...bring in Mario Illien or Andy Cowell to keep them running and rebadge them??

Farfetched i know...
Buying Honda's PU and then developing it might not be the worst idea in the world. They've got 18 months to put together a team of engineers.

Why not?
Well, for starters, Honda may not be eager to share its tech secrets with others.

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coaster
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Cosworth and Ilmor should be consulted for 2022 engine formula as an act of insurance against a manufacturer revolt.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:22 pm
Raleigh wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:19 pm
Ramifications are significant considering Renault's long term commitment is also in doubt, could well end up with Ferrari and Mercedes supplying the whole grid.

Really disappointed that Red Bull and Honda could not make the alliance work.
Yeah, the complexity of these power units is really taking its toll now. A return to some naturally aspirated V10's is in order I believe [-o<
And there's simply no incentive for any new engine supplier to enter the sport. They will have to go through the same very public growing pains and criticism Honda had to and not be competitive for quite some time, and even then probably realise the absolute ceiling is second best in class.

F1 needs to decide what it is, going forward. Certainly the engines need simplification to attract new manufacturers and make it worth their while, or they need a special dispensation to get up to speed. But where is the ROI?

Bsowles
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Any thoughts on perhaps Porsche entering the picture?

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AMG.Tzan
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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bucker wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:08 pm
What is funny is that Eddie did not predict it.
Yeah that's true...but that's the problem with Honda every time they come back into F1!

No one knows for how long they are committed to the sport! They've left 3 times now (1992,2008 and 2021) and they always leave without any warning and for no apparent reason!

But that's the problem with OEMs! They enter the sport when you least expect them to and they leave it for no apparent reason whenever they want to! There are those OEMs that entered once and never left (Ferrari, Renault, Mercedes) and then there are those that enter for 5-10 years (BMW, Toyota, Honda etc) and even if they win they'll just leave cause it doesn't fit their image suddenly!

So it's 2014 all over again with just 3 engine manufacturers...a "sad" day for F1! :(
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

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jjn9128
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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coaster wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:55 pm
Cosworth and Ilmor should be consulted for 2022 engine formula as an act of insurance against a manufacturer revolt.
F1 should always be planning for the manufacturers to chuck their toys out of the pram not allowing them to define the rules/formula. There are lots of companies who could step in to provide decent racing engines for lower costs than these V6s, AER/Gibson/Ricardo.
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dans79
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:22 pm
Raleigh wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:19 pm
Ramifications are significant considering Renault's long term commitment is also in doubt, could well end up with Ferrari and Mercedes supplying the whole grid.

Really disappointed that Red Bull and Honda could not make the alliance work.
Yeah, the complexity of these power units is really taking its toll now. A return to some naturally aspirated V10's is in order I believe [-o<
Honestly I think the turbo V6's would be fine, if the FIA just simplified the rules, and stopped trying to micromanage everything.
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djos
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Bsowles wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:06 pm
Any thoughts on perhaps Porsche entering the picture?
The next engine formula imo would need to look like their LMP system before they’d be interested.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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nzjrs
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:14 pm
coaster wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:55 pm
Cosworth and Ilmor should be consulted for 2022 engine formula as an act of insurance against a manufacturer revolt.
F1 should always be planning for the manufacturers to chuck their toys out of the pram not allowing them to define the rules/formula. There are lots of companies who could step in to provide decent racing engines for lower costs than these V6s, AER/Gibson/Ricardo.
Exactly, if FIA didn't know this was coming, and have contingencies or the memory of things they have offered that didn't move the needle on Honda to stay, then they are amateurs.

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nzjrs
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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coaster wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:55 pm
Cosworth and Ilmor should be consulted for 2022 engine formula as an act of insurance against a manufacturer revolt.
(made up numbers)

I don't think a 30mil dollar engine company would have interest in this sport while the sport is the same one in which a 600 million investment from a global auto manufacturer could not be sustained.

If this isn't a end of this rule/engine Era then I don't know what is.

To entice these smaller engine builders the next 10 year engine formula has to be radically different.

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Pretty disappointing news, Honda have once again left a competitive team in the lurch. 2021 will pretty much be a write off for Red Bull now as Honda are unlikely to be developing the engine any further.

It will ultimately be in Renault's best interest to have Red Bull as a customer team. Trying to go it solo just doesn't work, they need the data from the additional engines, McLaren made the same mistake trying to maintain the exclusive relationship with Honda.

There's still time for another manufacturer to enter the sport, but it will be a painful journey for Red Bull if that does happen, and it might make sense for AT to take the hit initially before the top team transitions over to whatever that new engine is.

DChemTech
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:24 pm
coaster wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:55 pm
Cosworth and Ilmor should be consulted for 2022 engine formula as an act of insurance against a manufacturer revolt.
(made up numbers)

I don't think a 30mil dollar engine company would have interest in this sport while the sport is the same one in which a 600 million investment from a global auto manufacturer could not be sustained.

If this isn't a end of this rule/engine Era then I don't know what is.

To entice these smaller engine builders the next 10 year engine formula has to be radically different.
I would extend that even to - I don't think any engine company would have interest making any investments into a designing and continuously developing engines based on a commercially dying technology. Either this means sitting out this engine formula with the current producers until those also decide to call it a day, or letting go of the idea that engines are part of the 'innovative' aspects of F1 (and simply move to a stock engine/engines with fair compensation for manufacturers), or switch to an alternative means of power generation, more in line with future transportation market prospects.

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coaster
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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What about an electrified track and a focus soley on electric motors, be damned with batteries and let it catch up some other way?

tangodjango
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:03 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:22 pm
Raleigh wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:19 pm
Ramifications are significant considering Renault's long term commitment is also in doubt, could well end up with Ferrari and Mercedes supplying the whole grid.

Really disappointed that Red Bull and Honda could not make the alliance work.
Yeah, the complexity of these power units is really taking its toll now. A return to some naturally aspirated V10's is in order I believe [-o<
And there's simply no incentive for any new engine supplier to enter the sport. They will have to go through the same very public growing pains and criticism Honda had to and not be competitive for quite some time, and even then probably realise the absolute ceiling is second best in class.

F1 needs to decide what it is, going forward. Certainly the engines need simplification to attract new manufacturers and make it worth their while, or they need a special dispensation to get up to speed. But where is the ROI?
Only way is to force Mercedes to open source last year´s engine design completely. From algorithms to nuts and bolts specifications. It will never happen but that is the only way. The F1 engine program has almost zero relevance to ANY automotive program going forward as we transition from PHEV to EV completely in the next 10-15 years and post that EV combined with Hydrogen fuel cell in some use cases.
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Big Tea
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:00 am
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:59 am
Maybe it's time for Red Bull to build their own engines! How?

Engine development is going to get more and more freezed by 2022 onwards...so what if they kept Honda's engines from 2021 onwards...bring in Mario Illien or Andy Cowell to keep them running and rebadge them??

Farfetched i know...
Buying Honda's PU and then developing it might not be the worst idea in the world. They've got 18 months to put together a team of engineers.

Why not?
This was my initial thought. It is a very complicated thing to go about but what about the possibility of someone like Mechachrome to continue engine build with ties to the factory but not costs directly attributed to Honda?

Did they not do that the first time they left F1?
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