Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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subcritical71
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Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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This whole track limits thing is maddening. The rules are quit clear in the sporting regulations;
27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately
leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of
the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race
director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.
Last week in Portugal it was a hybrid of no track limits, white line limits and curb limits which defined the track limit du jour. I'm just venting a bit, but it seems if the race director/stewards simply enforced the rules as written there would be no issue. Drivers will adapt to the limits and they can be enforced. I agree that the race director should be able to amend the rules but every week its a change (or reinforcement) related to track limits and how it is defined.

There is always talk about the penalty that should be applied, in my opinion you could dictate that if you are deemed to have exceeded track limits you must establish a single lap time (which does no include a pitstop) a value X seconds slower than your slowest complete lap so far in the race (not including the first lap). X right now seems to be 1.25 sec (4 instances gives you a 5 second penalty).

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El Scorchio
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:15 pm
This whole track limits thing is maddening. The rules are quit clear in the sporting regulations;
27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately
leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of
the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race
director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.
Last week in Portugal it was a hybrid of no track limits, white line limits and curb limits which defined the track limit du jour. I'm just venting a bit, but it seems if the race director/stewards simply enforced the rules as written there would be no issue. Drivers will adapt to the limits and they can be enforced. I agree that the race director should be able to amend the rules but every week its a change (or reinforcement) related to track limits and how it is defined.

There is always talk about the penalty that should be applied, in my opinion you could dictate that if you are deemed to have exceeded track limits you must establish a single lap time (which does no include a pitstop) a value X seconds slower than your slowest complete lap so far in the race (not including the first lap). X right now seems to be 1.25 sec (4 instances gives you a 5 second penalty).
It's one of my biggest issues with how the races are being managed. It's so unclear from race to race and even from corner to corner on the same track. It should be consistent every corner of every track and I thought it was crazy how they changed it in Portugal just because some drivers had issues with staying on properly in certain corners. Tough luck. Use your skill to drive within the track limits or pay the penalty. It should be challenging.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Yeah, its the 1 thing I really hate about F1 . Last weekend was a joke, in practice there were loads of times deleted, so they relaxed the track limits. WTF ? The drivers just need to go slower around the corner! Thats part of the skill is it not!? The stewards/FIA are a joke! something so simple should be easy to judge.
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SiLo
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Even if it means handing out 5 second penalties everywhere, they need to punish the drivers accordingly before thinking about adding grass or gravel or whatever.
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flynfrog
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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bring back the gravel traps then it will be fixed on its own.

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strad
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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I totally agree. They are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. I say show that you are,, STAY on the darn track.
And I say may the limits the white lines all the time all the way around. When did we say to them, "oh it's alright , drive where ever you want"?
In karts? In the lower classes? I don't think so.
The powers that be should come down hard on them. 5 Seconds? Hell no! Make it something that would deter them. Maybe 20 or 30 seconds.
Bet they would suddenly find the ability to stay between the lines.
And after two warnings disqualify them.
When they are sitting in the pits watching they'll shape up.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Big Tea
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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strad wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:03 pm
I totally agree. They are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. I say show that you are,, STAY on the darn track.
And I say may the limits the white lines all the time all the way around. When did we say to them, "oh it's alright , drive where ever you want"?
In karts? In the lower classes? I don't think so.
The powers that be should come down hard on them. 5 Seconds? Hell no! Make it something that would deter them. Maybe 20 or 30 seconds.
Bet they would suddenly find the ability to stay between the lines.
And after two warnings disqualify them.
When they are sitting in the pits watching they'll shape up.
Even when they withdrew the hard limit when there were complaints from drivers, there were still very many disq's in the next session, which just goes to show they wil always push what ever limit is set. So set the obvious one and put up with a couple weeks of complaints, then they will get it right.

The drivers complain they can not see the line from the car. Either add a 'parking sensor' type warning or use 'fall flat' style bollards, and if a bollard is hit, make it an automatic 5 seconds.
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Stu
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Concrete walls would really define track limits...
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Big Tea
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Stu wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:37 pm
Concrete walls would really define track limits...
They would have to get a fleet of safety cars in then
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Martin Brundle just made an excellent point about this. It should be a reward for skill, if you can carry the speed through the corner and stay on the track.

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Phil
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Less micro management = good.
More micro management = not good.

Most corners are self policed, which means that leaving the track (you know where the grippy surface is) loses you time, hence why there is no need to police them and add penalties.

For some corners it makes absolutely sense to police, as some will gain you time when leaving the track. That obviousy isnt ideal. Thus why oat Imola, only two corners are policed and track limits are enforced in relation to QF or the race.

I seriously dont get the outcry. We want more racing and less pointless interference by the stewards during races. Imagine the fun when most drivers had 5-10s punishments during races to serve. You wouldnt even know the positions until they all get added post finishing and all the infractions get added.
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strad
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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They do it because they can gain from it. If they didn't they wouldn't do it.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Big Tea
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Phil wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:01 pm
Less micro management = good.
More micro management = not good.

Most corners are self policed, which means that leaving the track (you know where the grippy surface is) loses you time, hence why there is no need to police them and add penalties.

For some corners it makes absolutely sense to police, as some will gain you time when leaving the track. That obviousy isnt ideal. Thus why oat Imola, only two corners are policed and track limits are enforced in relation to QF or the race.

I seriously dont get the outcry. We want more racing and less pointless interference by the stewards during races. Imagine the fun when most drivers had 5-10s punishments during races to serve. You wouldnt even know the positions until they all get added post finishing and all the infractions get added.
So they do not get penalise when the whole car is over the white line, fine, we are Ok
The outside tyre is over the red line, OK, keep doing it, the whole car is over the red and white line, OK take a short cut straight across, we can say its not much more than every one else.

And, as you say, they would only do it where it was an advantage.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

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subcritical71
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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If they don’t want to enforce track limits at all that is fine also, remove the rule. The way it is now is we have a rule, the rule is selectively enforced at best, at worst they make it up as they go and even change it mid event.

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sp8472
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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strad wrote:They do it because they can gain from it. If they didn't they wouldn't do it.
They have technology. Should have sensors on the car and white line. You go outside the white line on any corner you loose battery power for one lap. That would stop them quick and fast. The white line is the edge of the legal field of play. Just like in football. No compromise.

You leave the tack you gain an advantage. I don’t buy the self policing argument where they say you gain no advantage being wide. The advantage is you left the track and did not end up in a concrete wall like in Singapore. You are still in the race and able to take advantage of future opportunities. That is an advantage. Punish leaving the track anywhere heavily and suddenly there will be very few drivers leaving the track. I also think this would bring life back into some tracks because drivers would have to respect track limits and drive the way the track was originally designed.


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