VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Shrieker
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VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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I think time and again we've seen how pitting under the VSC/SC provides an unfair advantage to those who have been fortunate enough with the timing. This is no different than a lottery, might as well draw straws to determine the finishing order.

In the re-fueling era, this wasn't possible since bad timing + pit stop ban would've meant those about to pit would run out of fuel, making it an unfair/stupid rule. We don't have this problem anymore. We have another problem with the tires tho. Maybe we could incorporate an exception where it says "tires older than X amount of laps (say 30, or 40), you're allowed to pit" and/or "tires visibly worn, allowed to pit" into the rule.

Thoughts ?
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notsofast
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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I don't know if a ban is needed, but if they were to implement such a ban, there should be an exception to teams that had already announced "box box" over the radio before the VSC/SC was deployed.

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JordanMugen
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Shrieker wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:34 pm
Thoughts ?
Where this rule (no pit under SC) has been applied, it has caused everyone to pit as early as possible in case they get trapped behind the safety car, allowing their rivals who pitted earlier to catch their pitstop time back up.

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NathanOlder
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Yeah exactly, banning it makes ZERO difference to people being lucky or unlucky. As it is currently means, if you are good on your tyres (a very tough skill to perfect) Then you have more chance of being lucky under a safety car.
Now if you have little tyre preservation skills and chew up your tyres and pit earlier , then a safety car comes out you now have been lucky in that you have caught up to the cars in front who have not pitted.

Just leave it as it is. In my opinion a pit stop ban is a silly idea.
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Shrieker wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:34 pm
In the re-fueling era, this wasn't possible since bad timing + pit stop ban would've meant those about to pit would run out of fuel, making it an unfair/stupid rule. We don't have this problem anymore. We have another problem with the tires tho. Maybe we could incorporate an exception where it says "tires older than X amount of laps (say 30, or 40), you're allowed to pit" and/or "tires visibly worn, allowed to pit" into the rule.

Thoughts ?
At one point during the re-fueling era the pit lane was closed when the safety car deployed. Wasn't this rule that lead to Hamilton crashing into Kimi in the pitlane during the Canadian GP in 2008?

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Shrieker
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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notsofast wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:09 am
I don't know if a ban is needed, but if they were to implement such a ban, there should be an exception to teams that had already announced "box box" over the radio before the VSC/SC was deployed.
Makes sense at first look, but this can be abused so easily.

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:19 am
Yeah exactly, banning it makes ZERO difference to people being lucky or unlucky. As it is currently means, if you are good on your tyres (a very tough skill to perfect) Then you have more chance of being lucky under a safety car.
Now if you have little tyre preservation skills and chew up your tyres and pit earlier , then a safety car comes out you now have been lucky in that you have caught up to the cars in front who have not pitted.

Just leave it as it is. In my opinion a pit stop ban is a silly idea.
Fair enough, but keep in mind that at the same time it's much harder to anticipate a VSC/SC and go for a tire change in advance, compared to just being able to extend your stints since you're easy on the tires and pit whenever a VSC occurs.

Maybe just for VSC then ? Being good on your tires shouldn't give you a shot at half a pit stop for free, and saving the tires in the hopes of a VSC shouldn't be a legit race strategy (it is atm).
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henry
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Simply set a minimum time for a pit stop. 1.5 seconds normally, more when VSC in operation, even more when safety car. The time extensions can be set per track and circumstances. This would reduce the potential advantage from what it is now and probably change the balance with track position.
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NathanOlder
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Yeah thats a better idea, have a 2nd pit lane speed limit for SC and VSC. around half the current speed.

I dont feel it needs changing though. Its been this way for a long time. I think its just fine.
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Shrieker wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:57 pm
Maybe just for VSC then ? Being good on your tires shouldn't give you a shot at half a pit stop for free, and saving the tires in the hopes of a VSC shouldn't be a legit race strategy (it is atm).
Why not? Being quick and looking after tyres at the same time is a skill that not all drivers have or are able to develop. Surely banning stops under SC/VSC just penalises a driver with the skill and helps the less skilled driver. That seems to be anathema to the idea of F1 drivers being the best of their type.
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Phil
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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So wait, you want to ban the stops during VSC/Safety car to make the races even more predictable than they already are?
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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I think there's a few 'better' options in regards to 'unfair' advantages of a VSC.

I agree that you could argue that when a VSC is deployed for a very short time, that a driver/car can get an advantage if he can JUSt manage to enter the pit, grab a pitstop and fresh tires, and then get out right before the VSC ends, meaning cars a little behind can no longer benefit from the lesser time lost in a VSC pitstop. I would argue in one fashion, that this is simply racing and there's also luck, but I can imagine that it is something to look into.

the only reasonable solution for such a manner imho would be that in case of a VSC, there is a minimal 1-lap VSC neccesity, meaning, IF for example the VSC gets deployed, that the race leader must complete atleast 1 lap before the VSC gets lifted again, and the race 'restarts' at the finish line and nowhere else.

In other words, normal pitstop: 30 seconds.
P1 race leader needs to make a pitstop, as does P2 driver.

Race leader is 25 seconds ahead of the P2 driver.
Would lose position under normal circumstances, and P2 driver is gaining due to slightly better tires, and would get P1 in both undercut or overcut.

VSC pitstop would result in a pitstop of 20 seocnds.
Race leader could get a pitstop, and come in front of the P2 driver, and keep his position which he under all normal and fair circumstances LOSE to the P2 driver,
who's team and himself simply were doing a better job untill that moment.

VSC gets lifted right after the pitstop, so now, P2 driver gets handicapped and an 'unfair' treatment, since he still needs to pit,
and now the leader has GAINED a 5 second lead over P2 driver, instead of ended up 5 seconds BEHIND the P2 driver in fair circumstances.

If the VSC would however be kept for a FULL lap atleast,
then the pitstop would still be 10 seconds 'faster' compared to normal circumstances, so essentially there is little change as the P1 driver would still remain
with a 5 second lead instead of a 5 second defect, BUT atleast the P2 driver gets the same chance for those BEHIND him, and so would ALL the drivers,
untill the race leader crosses the finish line again.

ANOTHER option alltogether would be, that not only does the VSC MUST be imposed for atleast 1 completed lap at all times and is lifted when track is clear and race leader crosses the finish line, but that if a driver PITS during the VSC, then the difference in time lost must be added to the pitstop time at the box, and gets predetermined before the race.

the FIA will thus calculate how much an average lap will be, and how much an avarage lap will be under the VSC.

Let's say normal circumstances, a lap is 1:30 on average.

now let's concider that during the VSC, the cars must maintain a delta time, and as such, the average lap will not be 1:30, but will be 1:40 instead.
this obviously means a 10 second difference.

The teams that pit during VSC thus MUST wait these 10 seconds in the box BEFORE working on the car, essentially adding a 10 second penalty.

As such, the net result in the first example would be that the result of pitting under normal circumstances or under VSC will bring you NO unfair advantage,
and the P2 driver would not lose his race thanks to a 'lucky' VSC.

the OTHER can of worms that this would open up however, is that this could potentially ruin the race of teammates driving behind eachother and are no long able to 'stack' pitstop since they need to add a 10 second (depending on the track average) 'penalty'. So let's say Norris pits with Sainz directly behind. Normally, Sainz would lose about 3 seconds depending on how fast they change tires. in this case however, Sainz would get double penalty, as he is behind Norris but Norris first needs to serve 10 seconds, then get the 3 second pitstop, and then Sainz can get HIS pistop but he FIRST needs to serve HIS 10 seconds. in other words, stacking up is going to lose you 10 seconds, so you must stay out.

A VSC/SC pitstop ban ruins somebody's race due to other drivers' fault. After all, if you plan your pitstop by lap 30, and in lap 29 there's a SC for 5 laps, then your strategy is ruined, and you get the risk that your tires won't manage and MUST be replaced but you aren't allowed to enter. that won't work either.

In the end, I think the only reasonable solution is this: just keep it as it is.

I personally believe we are only having this discussion because Hamilton got lucky with the VSC, and there are suspicions that this is a deliberate ploy of some 'behind the scenes' deal between FIA and Mercedes as a result to compensate for the 'secret' deal between Ferrari and the FIA.
Let's put on the tinfoil hat and say: Mercedes got word of a foul game between Ferrari and FIA, where Ferrari should have been penalized much harder, then Mercedes threatened FIA that they would take (legal) action, and then the boys sat around the table and decided that whenever FIA gets an opportunity that they would 'covertly' benefit Mercedes so they can get Hamilton a title aswell as help Merc get another WCC title for the 2020 season.
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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henry wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:12 pm
Simply set a minimum time for a pit stop. 1.5 seconds normally, more when VSC in operation, even more when safety car. The time extensions can be set per track and circumstances. This would reduce the potential advantage from what it is now and probably change the balance with track position.
Absolutely. It could be an easy solution with a time before touching the car, just as a penalty. Depending on the track add ~+5-10sec for VSC and 15 or 20sec for a SC. If this time is tuned roughly to the track there is no benefit to gain and nothing to loose.
Phil wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:43 pm
So wait, you want to ban the stops during VSC/Safety car to make the races even more predictable than they already are?
The problem is not that the races are predictable, this is a simple result from a Qualifying. The problem is usually, that most cars pit except for very late SC and in the end the fastest car wins as overtaking is anyways over. If you have the fastest car you usually stay out longer or can afford to do other strategies as you have a tire benefit.
If you look in the last years, it was mostly Mercedes profiting from safety cars if they did not make stupid calls like in Monza or Monaco. But this was not luck, this was a result of better tire management.

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Big Tea
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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I think the only reason the top couple of teams are even in sight of the rest is due to the chance of a safety car. There is no point them expending the effort to to get 1.5 min ahead of the others if they think that at any time the lapped cars could be waved past them and the mid field is again on their heels.

I think it would be a bad idea to 'optimise it' as there would then be no reason not to run off and hide while everyone not at the sharp end gets their race destroyed by being blue flagged for 50% of the race.
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Shrieker
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Phil wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:43 pm
So wait, you want to ban the stops during VSC/Safety car to make the races even more predictable than they already are?
Do you want an artificial show, or real racing ? They already have artificial 'cautions' in Indycar to bunch up the field, which gives of strong wwe vibes..
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basti313
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Re: VSC/SC Pit Stop Ban

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Shrieker wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:06 pm
Phil wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:43 pm
So wait, you want to ban the stops during VSC/Safety car to make the races even more predictable than they already are?
Do you want an artificial show, or real racing ? They already have artificial 'cautions' in Indycar to bunch up the field, which gives of strong wwe vibes..
Hmmm...I do not even think it is mostly unpredictable or exciting. In most cases everyone pits under the early or late safety car and the race is over in case of a 1 stopper. There is a 20% chance at maximum that a safety car falls into the crucial pitstop region in the usual 1 stopper. Even with a 2 stop race the chance the safety car spices up the front is very little, as the top cars anyways pit at similar times. With a late (not very late) SC where everyone pits it kills the racing completely like in Monza.

For the rest...I think we can forget the Merc 25sec ahead of the field situations. I think it would be different and very exciting with a time penalty if the field has a ~5sec split. Then the top cars need to gamble....do they pit and loose track position or do they stay out? On the other hand the cars behind might be more willing to do the gamble and be on the tail of the opponent with fresh tires. Yes, this is somehow artificial, but at least a gamble that is controlled by the teams and strategic afford. The current situation is just gambling on luck.