Reverse DRS rule

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bucker
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Reverse DRS rule

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I was thinking about this several times. We saw in Turkey some overtaking manouvers which weren't realised, but the attempts were fun. Then at the middle of the race they decide to allow DRS. From trying to overtake in every corner, drivers waited to arrive into DRS zone and outbrake other driver into Turn 12.

So there is a suggestion.

What if DRS would be allowed for everyone except leader if they are more (not less) than 1 second apart. That way we can bring the cars together, but the last part of overtaking would be done only with drivers knowledge and skill.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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Won't you just then end up more often than not with huge DRS trains, with no-one able to overtake each other, because they are all using it? We've seen how problematic it is even with enough of a a car speed differential to overtake when the driver in front also happens to have DRS from a backmarker or something.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea but I think it might actually result in less overtaking.

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henry
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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The initial purpose of DRS was to compensate following cars for the loss of time in corners leading onto straights caused by aerodynamic disruption. This proposal does the opposite, compensating a following driver for not being quick enough in free air.

To my mind a problem with DRS is that it has become a fixed measure. The extent of DRS zones should be decided at each race after establishing the extent of compensation needed during practise. Instead the extents are predetermined meaning that often overtakes are too easy or impossible.
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cheeRS
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:23 pm
Won't you just then end up more often than not with huge DRS trains, with no-one able to overtake each other, because they are all using it? We've seen how problematic it is even with enough of a a car speed differential to overtake when the driver in front also happens to have DRS from a backmarker or something.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea but I think it might actually result in less overtaking.
I like the idea. Think about it. Let's assume a typical race in 2020.

Hamilton doesn't have DRS for several laps at the beginning of a race.
Verstappen 'easily' passes Hamilton due to having DRS from lap 1. Then, two scenarios:
1. Hamilton fights back with Verstappen using DRS, and passes him quickly. Verstappen then is right on the back of Hamilton.
2. Hamilton fights back with Verstappen, both slowing each other down so that Bottas and Albon come into play for the lead as well.

Then, the whole train of cars is relatively close. Add another simple rule that 1st place "never" gets DRS, even from a backmarker, and even IF there wasn't quite as many passes (I really think there would be a lot more), the whole train of cars would be way closer to 1st place. DRS is worth quite a lot compared with no DRS at all.


Of course, this system might not be the perfect solution in every way. Might have to tweak it a bit. Maybe 2nd and 3rd don't get DRS unless they're more than 2 seconds from 1st. Stuff like that.



Compared with now: 2nd and 3rd are fighting each other, each alternating who gets DRS. Meanwhile, 1st place rides off into the distance. :wink:

NL_Fer
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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They should increase the downforce for the follower in the corner, it would look more natural if 2 cars would exit the corner close behind eachother and battle on the straight with comparable speed.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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cheeRS wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:01 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:23 pm
Won't you just then end up more often than not with huge DRS trains, with no-one able to overtake each other, because they are all using it? We've seen how problematic it is even with enough of a a car speed differential to overtake when the driver in front also happens to have DRS from a backmarker or something.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea but I think it might actually result in less overtaking.
I like the idea. Think about it. Let's assume a typical race in 2020.

Hamilton doesn't have DRS for several laps at the beginning of a race.
Verstappen 'easily' passes Hamilton due to having DRS from lap 1.
Max wouldn't have DRS as he would be at the start less than 1 second behind. once he drops back he then gets DRS but it stops working when he gets to 1 second behind which means he has no chance of passing with no DRS until he drops further back.

Its an interesting idea, but it wouldn't make much overtaking. we would just have a long train of cars unable to pass. The idea will just help drivers catch up, but not pass.

I'd rather see the driver behind have DRS for the whole lap, or a certain amount of seconds in the lap when they are within 1 second.

DRS hopefully can be thrown away in 2022 when the new cars arrive. fingers crossed.
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Baulz
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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NL_Fer wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:19 pm
They should increase the downforce for the follower in the corner, it would look more natural if 2 cars would exit the corner close behind eachother and battle on the straight with comparable speed.
They could accomplish the same idea by forcing the car in front to open DRS in the corner, but I don't like the idea of that.

Zynerji
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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henry wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:58 pm
The initial purpose of DRS was to compensate following cars for the loss of time in corners leading onto straights caused by aerodynamic disruption. This proposal does the opposite, compensating a following driver for not being quick enough in free air.

To my mind a problem with DRS is that it has become a fixed measure. The extent of DRS zones should be decided at each race after establishing the extent of compensation needed during practise. Instead the extents are predetermined meaning that often overtakes are too easy or impossible.
I like the old quali rules with DRS...

Those with balls could use it anywhere they were brave enough to press the button.

But, Vettel was running away with pole positions, so they nerfed it.

DRS is self-restraining due to grip requirements. It should be used at will by the drivers. Having "zones" just makes it less about driver skill and more about artificial controls.

graham.reeds
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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How about 3 seconds per lap but you get a bank of 60 seconds? So you can use as much as you like when you like but once it's gone it's pretty much gone.

Fulcrum
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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graham.reeds wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:42 am
How about 3 seconds per lap but you get a bank of 60 seconds? So you can use as much as you like when you like but once it's gone it's pretty much gone.
They currently use closer to 10 seconds per lap, circuit dependent. Otherwise, I think this idea has more merit.

Essentially, free use of DRS, but capped to some maximum amount (in seconds) across the race distance.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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If you allow drivers to use DRS whenever they like, we'll just end up with DRS trains. DRS won't have any effect and so will be pointless. Free-for-all DRS is the same as no DRS.
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BrunoH
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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been saiying this for over 2 years on this forum.. everyone gets DRS except the first.. wold make the GP a lot better, plus the guy in front wold not get away

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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BrunoH wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:02 pm
been saiying this for over 2 years on this forum.. everyone gets DRS except the first.. wold make the GP a lot better, plus the guy in front wold not get away
Why would it make it better? The guy at the front is overtaken by the guy behind him who then becomes the leader and is overtaken, on the next straight, by the guy he's just overtaken. Everyone else is sat behind them because DRS doesn't do anything useful if everyone has it at the same time.

DRS works because it reduces the drag of the car, yes? The car in front has more drag and so has a slower top speed. But he also has a big wake that helps the car behind to slipstream. But if two cars have DRS open, the car in front benefits just as much from the drag reduction as the car behind and has a smaller wake, thus the car behind can't make useful progress unless he's already close enough to be able to do a "traditional overtake". And if he's that close anyway, DRS is irrelevant. The result is a DRS train with everyone running with their DRS open, all gaining from drag and wake reduction and thus no one can use a slipstream to overtake.
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wesley123
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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BrunoH wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:02 pm
been saiying this for over 2 years on this forum.. everyone gets DRS except the first.. wold make the GP a lot better, plus the guy in front wold not get away
We saw it in Sakhir that this really isn't the case. There were loads of DRS trains where no one could do anything. The pace advantage that is required becomes even bigger, because only in the top section were you able to create a gap on your own pace. Anywhere else was just DRS carrying you along.
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Diesel
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Re: Reverse DRS rule

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I think F1 is suffering from the restriction on engine modes. If you look back to the days of KERS, drivers could be tactical about how they deployed the extra energy to help aid with overtaking, and the most exciting thing about this is that it was quite often somewhere other than on the straights. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think today drivers can still change the ERS modes to have a similar effect? However, I feel the restricted engine mode has really reduced what the drivers can do during the race.

What these things have in common (KERS/ERS/Engine Modes) is that there is a limit on how much they can be used throughout a race or a single lap. A driver can go hard on the engine modes early in the race to make some progress, but will be forced to go conservative later in the race to make it to the finish. This is the sort of thing that creates the offsets in performance needed in F1 to see lots of overtaking. Tyres are also meant to create this offset, but unfortunately F1 teams are able to optimise strategies to the point where everyone is just running the same strategy.

Perhaps one solution for DRS is to put a maximum limit on DRS usage during a race, for example 5x activations. If you use them all up early in the race you'll be vunerable later in the race, if you save them you could attack later in the race when nobody else has them left to defend. You could go 1 step further and grant an additional activation in certain circumstances, maybe after 2 laps of being stuck behind a car without any activations left, you get 1 extra activation up to a maxium of 1 extra activation at a time i.e. you get a chance to pass a car you're stuck behind.

So in summary:
  • All drivers are granted 5x DRS activations to use at any time during the race. Think of this as 5x slots and they start the race with all 5 available.
  • Drivers are free to use them as they please, each time DRS is used, either for attacking or defending, 1x activation is deducted from the current total.
And then possibly consider something like this:
  • When a driver has run out of activations, they can earn an additional activation by being within 1 second of the car ahead in the activation zone for 2 consecutive laps. This is limited to 1x additional activation at a time i.e. a driver can't accumlate them by sitting behind another car.
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