Reverse DRS rule

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
El Scorchio
42
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Reverse DRS rule

Post

Diesel wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:18 pm
I think F1 is suffering from the restriction on engine modes. If you look back to the days of KERS, drivers could be tactical about how they deployed the extra energy to help aid with overtaking, and the most exciting thing about this is that it was quite often somewhere other than on the straights. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think today drivers can still change the ERS modes to have a similar effect? However, I feel the restricted engine mode has really reduced what the drivers can do during the race.

What these things have in common (KERS/ERS/Engine Modes) is that there is a limit on how much they can be used throughout a race or a single lap. A driver can go hard on the engine modes early in the race to make some progress, but will be forced to go conservative later in the race to make it to the finish. This is the sort of thing that creates the offsets in performance needed in F1 to see lots of overtaking. Tyres are also meant to create this offset, but unfortunately F1 teams are able to optimise strategies to the point where everyone is just running the same strategy.

Perhaps one solution for DRS is to put a maximum limit on DRS usage during a race, for example 5x activations. If you use them all up early in the race you'll be vunerable later in the race, if you save them you could attack later in the race when nobody else has them left to defend. You could go 1 step further and grant an additional activation in certain circumstances, maybe after 2 laps of being stuck behind a car without any activations left, you get 1 extra activation up to a maxium of 1 extra activation at a time i.e. you get a chance to pass a car you're stuck behind.

So in summary:
  • All drivers are granted 5x DRS activations to use at any time during the race. Think of this as 5x slots and they start the race with all 5 available.
  • Drivers are free to use them as they please, each time DRS is used, either for attacking or defending, 1x activation is deducted from the current total.
And then possibly consider something like this:
  • When a driver has run out of activations, they can earn an additional activation by being within 1 second of the car ahead in the activation zone for 2 consecutive laps. This is limited to 1x additional activation at a time i.e. a driver can't accumlate them by sitting behind another car.
I like the idea in theory but it's quite complicated (it is so important that casual viewers know what on earth is going on, rather than just us 'educated' minority) and a bit gimmicky- like something Formula E would do.

I think my favourite suggestion that's come up is (might have been Henry but i could be wrong) just give race control the ability to tweak the DRS zones for each track over Friday to come up with an 'optimum' length where overtaking isn't so easy it's done halfway down the zone, or so hard that no-one can pass even with DRS.

Also maybe think about where the detection zones are? Even if they are not really close to the actual DRS zone, put it at the point in a lap where cars are closest together so DRS is available more often to chasing cars? (or say you can be 1.25-1.5 seconds behind rather than 1 second?)

This is a pretty interesting discussion so far!

bucker
bucker
11
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Reverse DRS rule

Post

I agree with some suggestions. Rule about 5x usage is evenn better.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
518
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Reverse DRS rule

Post

bucker wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:04 pm
I was thinking about this several times. We saw in Turkey some overtaking manouvers which weren't realised, but the attempts were fun. Then at the middle of the race they decide to allow DRS. From trying to overtake in every corner, drivers waited to arrive into DRS zone and outbrake other driver into Turn 12.

So there is a suggestion.

What if DRS would be allowed for everyone except leader if they are more (not less) than 1 second apart. That way we can bring the cars together, but the last part of overtaking would be done only with drivers knowledge and skill.
The system can be gamed.
A driver drops back to 1.1 seconds gets DRS on every straight, saving his tyres in the corners then to spring an attack USING DRS anyway on the last straight.
You can try actively disabling the DRS once he approaches 1s even in use but that is going to be hella damgerous.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

Zynerji
Zynerji
105
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Reverse DRS rule

Post

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:08 am
If you allow drivers to use DRS whenever they like, we'll just end up with DRS trains. DRS won't have any effect and so will be pointless. Free-for-all DRS is the same as no DRS.
As usual, you are incorrect. πŸ™„

Grip limits DRS usage. Not all cars could use it in the same places, so you would get deltas and overtaking opportunities from "unlimited" DRS.

It might highlight the best chassis more than currently, but would not end up in full trains. On the contrary. It would add passing in traditionally non-passing zones.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
704
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Reverse DRS rule

Post

Zynerji wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:32 pm
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:08 am
If you allow drivers to use DRS whenever they like, we'll just end up with DRS trains. DRS won't have any effect and so will be pointless. Free-for-all DRS is the same as no DRS.
As usual, you are incorrect. πŸ™„

Grip limits DRS usage. Not all cars could use it in the same places, so you would get deltas and overtaking opportunities from "unlimited" DRS.

It might highlight the best chassis more than currently, but would not end up in full trains. On the contrary. It would add passing in traditionally non-passing zones.
Yet another little insult from you. :roll:

Experience, rather than hand waving wishes, shows that free for all DRS won't be the magic ingredient. We get DRS trains now and we get a line of cars all with DRS open and all maintaining position. As I stated above, quite correctly, thank you.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
henry
320
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Reverse DRS rule

Post

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:43 am
Zynerji wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:32 pm
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:08 am
If you allow drivers to use DRS whenever they like, we'll just end up with DRS trains. DRS won't have any effect and so will be pointless. Free-for-all DRS is the same as no DRS.
As usual, you are incorrect. πŸ™„

Grip limits DRS usage. Not all cars could use it in the same places, so you would get deltas and overtaking opportunities from "unlimited" DRS.

It might highlight the best chassis more than currently, but would not end up in full trains. On the contrary. It would add passing in traditionally non-passing zones.
Yet another little insult from you. :roll:

Experience, rather than hand waving wishes, shows that free for all DRS won't be the magic ingredient. We get DRS trains now and we get a line of cars all with DRS open and all maintaining position. As I stated above, quite correctly, thank you.
I agree.

I would expect initially the DRS trains to be strung out a bit more as each car falls back until they can deploy the DRS in roughly the same places. The car at the head of the train will be able to deploy for more of the lap since in free air they will have more downforce. They will drift off until the next car in the train gets the advantage. We’ll end up with what we have now, cars sorted by downforce, just a bit further apart.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Zynerji
Zynerji
105
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Reverse DRS rule

Post

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:43 am
Zynerji wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:32 pm
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:08 am
If you allow drivers to use DRS whenever they like, we'll just end up with DRS trains. DRS won't have any effect and so will be pointless. Free-for-all DRS is the same as no DRS.
As usual, you are incorrect. πŸ™„

Grip limits DRS usage. Not all cars could use it in the same places, so you would get deltas and overtaking opportunities from "unlimited" DRS.

It might highlight the best chassis more than currently, but would not end up in full trains. On the contrary. It would add passing in traditionally non-passing zones.
Yet another little insult from you. :roll:

Experience, rather than hand waving wishes, shows that free for all DRS won't be the magic ingredient. We get DRS trains now and we get a line of cars all with DRS open and all maintaining position. As I stated above, quite correctly, thank you.
DRS trains are due to the limitations of zones.

Free DRS would change the speed deltas at other points on the track, and open MORE passing opportunities.

Imagine a driver leaving Parabolica, but able to open DRS mid-corner. The sooner a driver can open it, the faster the top speed into turn 1. The difference of just a few feet of activation distance could mean everything for an overtaking opportunity there. It could also cause the car to spin if the driver is too abusive with it. This is the self-balance part of the system that makes it work.

Pat Symonds said that to increase overtaking opportunities, the teams needed to give the drivers more power than the chassis could handle. Unlimited DRS is a way for the driver to get more speed at the expense of downforce, effectively generating the scenario Pat had suggested many years ago.