The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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ENGINE TUNER
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Wynters wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:38 pm

There are examples of Hamilton not doing well in the wet (he's only been on Pole in 11 of the 28 wet Qualifyings since he started F1, for instance)
Excellent post, have a list perchance?Please share of you do.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Andres125sx
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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As Pedro de la Rosa said for the spanish TV, ignore the images and just hear Lewis engine for the qualifying lap, then compare with Max. Max has wheel spinning constantly, what is obvious watching his constant counterwheels, while Lewis has almost zero wheel spin. That´s NOT the car as all cars are grip limited for almost the whole lap, that´s Hamilton being smooth with the throttle, and being smooth in slippery conditions is key

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Sieper
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:40 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:23 pm
The Merc to me seems the better car, also in the rain. What I got was Hamilton is the rainmaster (which he is) and Max is not even better then Bottas. Yeah. So there is that.
I don't know how you concluded Mercedes is better in the rain? I am not a f1 veteran but I have been watching since about 2000 and, between top cars, without any obvious fish-tailing or wild hacksawing at the wheel, It is very hard to clearly say wich cars are better in the rain without being some sort of serious race car expert. Not even the sky pundits (Ant davidson, Button, Chnadok) even dared to make such a guess...

You will have to tell us where you see the Mercedes car its self being easier to drive... There are times when either driver has to do corrections and damping of the throttle... Just different driving.

What I do see is the mercedes having higher speeds on the straights about 2 to 5kph faster.

Also Hamilton release the brake at higher speeds. He does more lift and coasting. This may be due to ERS settings.. Would love to see Bottas' on-board.

https://youtu.be/Qpp4isReD50
Accelerating out of turn 1 I see a difference in how much wheelspin both have, Max seems to have his hands full more. Turn 3 is very hard To say as they take such different lines And both audio tracks upon eachother make it hard to judge. I think out of turn 6 it was the same, better traction for the Merc. Now, if that is up to the driver or the car, or both. Who is to say. A Bottas comparison would perhaps indeed be more telling. Maybe Also Max versus Albon as well. What stood out to me Most was the better traction the Merc seems to have. That was my main point for saying, and please take note in what I say "it seems".

I fully agree we cannot judge that really, we can just take our experience from watching and listening but that is that. Never sufficient. In fact, we know so incredibly little about the background of how any performance the drivers put on the track is formed*. But OK, there is a topic here about mastering the rain so we must try to make some kind of estimation on what level everybody is in fact doing that, in that gest I made that assumption that to me it seems that way.

*this forum tries to go as deep into that as possible (from the ones I visit) but even here, we are just guessing. Precious little hard info is ever shared. Even things that I made my mind up about and seem set in concrete (like Ferrari's engine adventures) are just assumption.

If you are watching a tennis or volleyball, football match it is easier to judge the relative performance.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

Wynters
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:20 am
Wynters wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:38 pm

There are examples of Hamilton not doing well in the wet (he's only been on Pole in 11 of the 28 wet Qualifyings since he started F1, for instance)
Excellent post, have a list perchance?Please share of you do.
It wouldn't surprise me if I've missed at least one...

2007 - Japan (LH)
2008 - Italy (SV)
2009 - Brazil (RB)
2010 - Malaysia (MW), Belgium (MW), Brazil (NH)
2011 - Belgium (SV)
2012 - Britain (FA), Germany (FA)
2013 - Australia (SV), Malaysia (SV), Monaco (NR), Canada (SV), Belgium (LH), Brazil (SV)
2014 - Australia (LH), Malaysia (LH), China (LH), Britain (NR), Belgium (NR)
2015 - Malysia (LH), United States (NR)
2016 - Austira (LH), Hungary (NR)
2017 - Britain (LH), Italy (LH)
2018 - Hungary (LH)
2019 -
2020 - Styria (LH)

I've tried to colour-code them to make it easier to parse. I suspect it might have made it more confusing though (feedback welcome)

What surprised me is how well Rosberg did. Similarly, Webber seems to have been pretty handy until RBR began skewing things towards Vettel (which, considering their trophy haul, looked liked the smart play). Alonso was also surprising, having success in 2012 and not much else. No sign of Button.
Last edited by Wynters on Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wynters
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Thought I'd try another one, this time rain-impacted races. I'm certain I've missed some so please add any you are aware of (e.g. I'm sure Vettel must've won at least one during his championship years).

2007 - Great Britain (KR), Japan (LH)
2008 - Monaco (LH), Great Britain (LH), Belgium (LH)
2009 - Malaysia (JB), China (SV)
2010 - Belgian (LH), Korea(FA)
2011 - Canada (JB), Germany (LH), Hungary (JB)
2012 - Malaysia (FA), Great Britain (MW), Brazil (JB)
2013 - Malaysia (SV)
2014 - Hungary (DR), Japan (LH)
2015 - Great Britain (LH), United States (LH)
2016 - Monaco (LH), Great Britain (LH), Brazil (LH)
2017 - China (LH), Singapore (LH)
2018 - Germany (LH)
2019 - Germany (MV)
Last edited by Wynters on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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El Scorchio
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:47 am
Thought I'd try another one, this time rain-impacted races. I'm certain I've missed some so please add any you are aware of (e.g. I'm sure Vettel must've won at least one during his championship years).

2007 - Great Britain (KR), Japan (LH)
2008 - Monaco (LH), Great Britain (LH), Belgium (LH)
2009 - Malaysia (JB), China (SV)
2010 - Belgian (LH), Korea(FA)
2011 - Canada (JB), Germany (LH), Hungary (JB)
2012 - Malaysia (FA), Great Britain (MW), Brazil (JB)
2013 -
2014 - Hungary (DR), Japan (LH)
2015 - Great Britain (LH), United States (LH)
2016 - Monaco (LH), Great Britain (LH), Brazil (LH)
2017 - China (LH), Singapore (LH)
2018 - Germany (LH)
2019 - Germany (MV)
That's a phenomenal record in race trim assuming there's nothing missing. Both before and during the Mercedes times.
Last edited by El Scorchio on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pyrone89
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:47 am
As Pedro de la Rosa said for the spanish TV, ignore the images and just hear Lewis engine for the qualifying lap, then compare with Max. Max has wheel spinning constantly, what is obvious watching his constant counterwheels, while Lewis has almost zero wheel spin. That´s NOT the car as all cars are grip limited for almost the whole lap, that´s Hamilton being smooth with the throttle, and being smooth in slippery conditions is key
Ever heard of engine mapping?

MildSevenB195R25
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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:evil: If we are going to nitpick at Hamilton’s brilliant wet record, let’s not forget Schumacher got beat by Hill in Japan 94, lapped at Brazil 96, Overtaken by Coulthard in Brazil 2001, crashed at Imola in 95, Monaco 96 & Brazil 2003, had Alonso dancing around the outside of him at Hungary 2006....

Senna was the best. Schumi and Hamilton a bit behind.

At this point, if verstappen is a wet weather great, then so is Jean Alesi.
Last edited by MildSevenB195R25 on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pyrone89
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:47 am
Thought I'd try another one, this time rain-impacted races. I'm certain I've missed some so please add any you are aware of (e.g. I'm sure Vettel must've won at least one during his championship years).

2007 - Great Britain (KR), Japan (LH)
2008 - Monaco (LH), Great Britain (LH), Belgium (LH)
2009 - Malaysia (JB), China (SV)
2010 - Belgian (LH), Korea(FA)
2011 - Canada (JB), Germany (LH), Hungary (JB)
2012 - Malaysia (FA), Great Britain (MW), Brazil (JB)
2013 - Malaysia (SV)
2014 - Hungary (DR), Japan (LH)
2015 - Great Britain (LH), United States (LH)
2016 - Monaco (LH), Great Britain (LH), Brazil (LH)
2017 - China (LH), Singapore (LH)
2018 - Germany (LH)
2019 - Germany (MV)
Wynters wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:04 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:20 am
Wynters wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:38 pm

There are examples of Hamilton not doing well in the wet (he's only been on Pole in 11 of the 28 wet Qualifyings since he started F1, for instance)
Excellent post, have a list perchance?Please share of you do.
It wouldn't surprise me if I've missed at least one...

2007 - Japan (LH)
2008 - Italy (SV)
2009 - Brazil (RB)
2010 - Malaysia (MW), Belgium (MW), Brazil (NH)
2011 - Belgium (SV)
2012 - Britain (FA), Germany (FA)
2013 - Australia (SV), Malaysia (SV), Monaco (NR), Canada (SV), Belgium (LH), Brazil (SV)
2014 - Australia (LH), Malaysia (LH), China (LH), Britain (NR), Belgium (NR)
2015 - Malysia (LH), United States (NR)
2016 - Austira (LH), Hungary (NR)
2017 - Britain (LH), Italy (LH)
2018 - Hungary (LH)
2019 -
2020 - Styria (LH)

I've tried to colour-code them to make it easier to parse. I suspect it might have made it more confusing though (feedback welcome)

What surprised me is how well Rosberg did. Similarly, Webber seems to have been pretty handy until RBR began skewing things towards Vettel (which, considering their trophy haul, looked liked the smart play). Alonso was also surprising, having success in 2012 and not much else. No sign of Button.
What these lists finally make clear that even Hamilton needs an absolute top car to consistently win in the wet as can be seen by the years (2008, 2014 onwards).

Ps: if you want to see the hate I am dealing with. Someone just again minussed one of my post (they intentionally go to your posts in topics with voting on to punish you for having a different opinion) and added in the explaination hatefull slurs.
Last edited by Pyrone89 on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Wynters
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:23 pm
That's a phenomenal record in race trim assuming there's nothing missing. Both before and during the Mercedes times.
I've found one more for Vettel (I've edited it in). I'm sure there's at least one more.

I suspect Alonso (at least) might have more as well.

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El Scorchio
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:43 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:23 pm
That's a phenomenal record in race trim assuming there's nothing missing. Both before and during the Mercedes times.
I've found one more for Vettel (I've edited it in). I'm sure there's at least one more.

I suspect Alonso (at least) might have more as well.
I was surprised to see so little of Vettel on there from 2010-13 period!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:47 am
As Pedro de la Rosa said for the spanish TV, ignore the images and just hear Lewis engine for the qualifying lap, then compare with Max. Max has wheel spinning constantly, what is obvious watching his constant counterwheels, while Lewis has almost zero wheel spin. That´s NOT the car as all cars are grip limited for almost the whole lap, that´s Hamilton being smooth with the throttle, and being smooth in slippery conditions is key
Ever heard of engine mapping?
No traction control is allowed. The engine output in the wet is still a direct relationship to throttle position as in the dry... Just less torque at given rpms. As long as engine output is smooth without any jumps or trips....

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SiLo
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Bit pointless comparing drivers from different eras and teams. Hamilton, Schumacher, Senna... all rainmasters in my opinion as they have regularly shown to be doing things others simply cannot.
Felipe Baby!

Wynters
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:38 pm
What these lists finally make clear that even Hamilton needs an absolute top car to consistently win in the wet as can be seen by the years (2008, 2014 onwards).
There's a strong correlation between being in a top 3 WCC team and doing well. But there's also a strong correlation between being a good driver and being in a top 3 WCC team.

The best comparison is probably to look at who else was in one of the leading teams and how well they have consistently done over a sustained period of time. Looking at period when Hamilton wasn't in a dominant car (2007 to 2013), only Vettel had more wet Poles and, during the same period, Hamilton won more wet races than anyone else and nearly half overall* (only one with the fastest car), that seems a pretty good record.

If we compare a different period, say 2016 to the present (where Hamilton has been in generally dominant machinery), there have been six wet qualifyings and seven wet races. Vettel and Verstappen were in 'absolute top cars' (i.e. Top 3 WCC team similar to Hamilton in '07-'13), did they perform as well relatively as he did in '07-'13?

As an aside, 2008 is not the McLaren to pick (it was closer to the Sauber in 3rd than the Ferrari in 1st in the WCC). 2007 was a stronger relative design.

*Subject to ongoing review

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Pyrone89
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Re: The Greatest "Rainmaster"?

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:47 am
As Pedro de la Rosa said for the spanish TV, ignore the images and just hear Lewis engine for the qualifying lap, then compare with Max. Max has wheel spinning constantly, what is obvious watching his constant counterwheels, while Lewis has almost zero wheel spin. That´s NOT the car as all cars are grip limited for almost the whole lap, that´s Hamilton being smooth with the throttle, and being smooth in slippery conditions is key
Ever heard of engine mapping?
No traction control is allowed. The engine output in the wet is still a direct relationship to throttle position as in the dry... Just less torque at given rpms. As long as engine output is smooth without any jumps or trips....
And exactly that last part is what Verstappen has been saying is a problem in the longer friday interviews with the Dutch reporter