McLaren: do anyone within a team talk to each other?!!

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timbo
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McLaren: do anyone within a team talk to each other?!!

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Well it's about statements of McLaren officials to the press. First after Brazil Ron Dennis speaks that he accepts the failure, then they issue an appeal. Recently Whitmarsh spoke that the appeal was intended for rule clarification, now Ian Mills (McLaren lawyer) states that they want points to be given to Hamilton....
Do they care about public face or anything?

FLC
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"We are the most honest team on the grid" :^o

timbo
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Well I just don't understand what Ron Dennis wants with the appeal. In my mind the most logical path would be to forget this season and move on for the future (and he indeed holds the future of F1 with Hamilton). But now that's appeal. What if they succeed? Hamilton would be remembered as not only first roolie champion but as court-winning champion. Most of F1 fans (except hamilton and McLaren fanatics) would hate the team for the rest of it's days... What's the point? I guess he is still bitter after being punished in spy case. But being a man in his position... He'd better could overcome his bitterness.

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checkered
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Autosport, quoting McLaren barrister Ian Mill making his case at the FIA International Court of Appeal, wrote:The principle is clear. If there was a breach, it was performance-enhancing. The sanction, I'm afraid, has to be disqualification.

I ask you to address this as though it was any team at any stage of the season.

Whenever in the past there has been a disqualification, there has been a re-classification ... All we ask you to do is what normally happens.
Autosport, quoting Martin Whitmarsh, wrote:At today's hearing all parties had the opportunity to present evidence and make arguments based on their respective perception of the facts. It now lies with the FIA International Court of Appeal to deliberate and issue a decision.

As I made clear prior to the appeal, the team was seeking to clarify the regulatory uncertainty that has arisen from a decision of the FIA Stewards at the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix and not to win the Driver's World Championship.

Our lawyer's argument that an appropriate penalty would be a disqualification of the cars is based on the fact that this is ordinarily what has occurred during the last 20 years in Formula One when there was a breach of a technical regulation during a race.

Consequently whilst this was the only appropriate argument from a legal point of view, it's not our ultimate goal in respect of today's hearing.
So if Hamilton just happens to land the WDC, it's just "collateral damage" compared to getting a clarification, something that McLaren could've requested and achieved for future reference from the FIA without ever challenging any past race result or procedure? OK, the team and especially its leadership consists of very ambitious and competitive people. That goes almost without saying.

It's just natural that taking in all that happened during the season will take some time and some effort. But if they seriously expect the above arguments to fly with anyone, aren't they seriously underestimating the F1 fan base? If they don't expect the above arguments to make sense, isn't that just a verbal way to "flip the bird" towards anyone within perceptive range? At this point it'd be more honest to say: "Yeah, we don't mind 'winning' this way. What does it matter? We've been involved in rampant litigation and regulatory actions all season long, and at least half of that we've initiated by our own accord. That's part and parcel of F1 today and we'll use it to full effect, lest anyone else beats us to it."

Do I actually care whether Lewis or Kimi is 'confirmed' as champion as the result of this? Not a chance, too much water under the bridge. What possible argument could I find to determine the 'worthy' champion? The fact is, I feel sorry for both, they both deserve better. What's important here is that precious few have taken responsibility of F1's general interest lately, while a veritable army has been chipping away at its base and credentials. Too little, too late. What does it say about F1, if fans become indifferent about the championships? Out of necessity?

:-k

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63957
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63949

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Spencifer_Murphy
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timbo wrote:Well I just don't understand what Ron Dennis wants with the appeal. In my mind the most logical path would be to forget this season and move on for the future
You have to remember that winning the title for RD could be of huge financial importance to him and his team. After all they can't win the WCC, AND they have a hefty fine to pay, the WDC could have financial benifits (sponsor bonuses etc.) for the Mclaren team. That's why they're appealing.

Like most things in life nowadays its motivated by money. I don't condone it though. I mean sure if the drivers with irregular fuel are DQ'd then great, that should happen, BUT Lewis was 20 seconds behind them, the advantage they recieved by this break in the rules would not have been large enough for Lewis to have been competing for that coverted 5th place. i.e Fuel irregularity or not Lewis would not have finished 5th, therefore this fuel irregularity has no implications for the WDC at all.

Personally I think Lewis deserves the title, and Kimi deserves it equally (I mean what a comeback!) but if Kimi is stripped of his title then its a MASSIVE injustice to Kimi. And it will severely damage F1.
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

FLC
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Whitmarsh was also quoted on this matter yesterday:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63930

They obviously have troubles in explaining their position. That usually happens when one lies.

Besides, since when do you pay a lawyer and then have to twist and clarify in order to explain what he meant when representing you??? Pathetic.

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Spencifer_Murphy
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FLC wrote:Whitmarsh was also quoted on this matter yesterday:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63930

They obviously have troubles in explaining their position. That usually happens when one lies.
LMAO! :lol:

Well I wouldn't admit to trying to win the championship in a courtroom purely for money's sake. Its disgusting. But hey, that's big business for ya eh?
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

FLC
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You don't really need to. It's pretty easy to explain why you want to win the championship, any championship for that matter, especially under these particular circumstances, and I'm sure any member of this forum could have done it without saying the word "money" even once.
But I guess that's too much to ask from a lawyer who seem to have difficulties in understanding his client's interest to the full. Or maybe the client himself doesn't know what he really wants...

For the sake of the McLaren name, I hope Mercedes will show some intervention soon. It seems to me that nowadays at McLaren, the right hand doesn't know what the left one is doing.

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Ciro Pabón
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It ain't gonna happen.

It's sad to see McLaren going so low. Dennis will be remembered by this year: first, the team cheats as much as possible but nobody is responsible, then they decide to "do nothing" for Alonso, the WDC they have aboard because of "equality among drivers" (don't make me laugh); later, they throw away the best driver in the grid, finally they protest the championship they lost because of their own stupidity. Way to go.

I always have hopes of poetic justice flowering, so I'm waiting for a horrible 2008 for the team. The only english team that deserves a championship is Williams.

They don't go lower because there are not thinner carpets on the floor of their Council Room... Fortunately, Dennis can find a position at a circus if they finally decide to throw him away: as a juggler or as a clown.
Ciro

timbo
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Spencifer_Murphy wrote:
timbo wrote:Well I just don't understand what Ron Dennis wants with the appeal. In my mind the most logical path would be to forget this season and move on for the future
You have to remember that winning the title for RD could be of huge financial importance to him and his team. After all they can't win the WCC, AND they have a hefty fine to pay, the WDC could have financial benifits (sponsor bonuses etc.) for the Mclaren team. That's why they're appealing.
Well, firstly, I believe WDC has no connection to TV money. Secondly, do you believe many sponsors would be at ease with the fact that they sponsor court-winning champion? Imagine slogan - "We'd buy best lawyers to Hamilton! He may even not finish the race!" :lol:

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HKS
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FLC wrote:"We are the most honest team on the grid" :^o

How true :lol: :lol:
Racing cars are neither beautiful nor ugly, they are beautiful only when you win races.

kimi
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Re: McLaren: do anyone within a team talk to each other?!!

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timbo wrote:Well it's about statements of McLaren officials to the press. First after Brazil Ron Dennis speaks that he accepts the failure, then they issue an appeal. Recently Whitmarsh spoke that the appeal was intended for rule clarification, now Ian Mills (McLaren lawyer) states that they want points to be given to Hamilton....
Do they care about public face or anything?
Someone is missing..
Where the hell is Norbert Haug??

Now if mclaren wins the appeal he would say," we won it fair and square.We really worked hard all year to get those Ferrari data.it was really tough to understand and implement those date on our car.But in the end we managed to do a good job.All the members back in the factory worked really hard.We really deserved it."

bizadfar
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FLC wrote:the right hand doesn't know what the left one is doing.
Reminds me of one of the Bush speech bloopers. :D

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Steven
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Re: McLaren: do anyone within a team talk to each other?!!

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kimi wrote:Someone is missing..
Where the hell is Norbert Haug??
Well if I remember correctly Haug was also not (prominently) present in the spy case. He is anyway a Mercedes employee and is also involved in DTM and other sports.

Anyway, I would greatly regret if Hamilton would be handed the WDC this way. F1 has already lost a great fanbase in the spy scandal. We can very much miss another one of these political issues.

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

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http://www.forix.com/8w/lauda.html

absolutely same story as Alonso vs Hamolton... People never change. You know, I thought - maybe RD is just an old fart with artritis? Now I know he always behaved like what we have seen this year.