Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Jersey Tom
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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I literally have no words.

(a) Because the original assassin theory is so outrageously dumb.

(b) Because Ciro's post is hilarious.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

wesley123
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Gecko wrote:You have a disturbingly vivid imagination, wesley123.

Why do you say his head movement is "lifeless"? Just where did you get that idea? If you check the tape very carefully, the moment he tilts the head is the moment he turns the steering wheel fully because the car started to understeer off the track. To do that an F1 driver must cross the arms, and probably tilt the upper body and therefore the head as well. It's hard to say what happened exactly from the video, but why go for an out of the world explanation when a very straightforward one is readily available.
I say that because his had is shaking a bit due to Gforces and in the turn his head goes a bit to the left due to G Forces, and then his head moves completely to the left like he is dead
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

nas
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Hi All,

I am new to this forum, although I have been reading it for quite a while now.

The theory that a sniper killed Senna is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard and it is a real rubbish story.

Having said this, it prompted me to once again look at the videos available on the net as well as reading some of the witness accounts. One thing that became apparent was that some cover up may have really taken place – it was said that the last 1.5 s of the Senna’s car camera footage had been lost and this appears to be confirmed by the film produced by Cineca (the Institute commissioned to investigate the available video footage http://www.cineca.it/sap/senna.htm , http://www.cineca.it/sap/files/mpeg/out5.mpeg , http://www.cineca.it/sap/files/cam_car.mpg ) - they have produced a video combining the on-board footage and the telemetry channels. The video stops well short of the car leaving the track. At the same time, the video posted by modbaraban, which I have seen before and which I think is a part of a program aired few years back, shows the car LEAVING the track and the on-board footage stops at the point where the car crosses the boarder between the grass and the tarmac (or concrete) pad in front of the barriers. I also clocked the time (with a chronometer) that has taken the car to cross this pad using the external footage and my timing shows anywhere between 0.7 to 0.8 s, which suggests that the on-board footage from modbaraban’s video stops more like 0.9 s before the crush and not 1.5 s, which I think is the case with Cineca’s (official) video material.

I apologise if this has already been discussed and at the same time I will wait to hear your opinions if I have completely missed something and I am wrong in my thinking.

Also, having worked in the motorsport industry for many years, I strongly disagree that the reason the car left the circuit is bottoming. To me, it sounds a lot more plausible that the steering column broke despite the clams that it was still transmitting torque at the time of the crush according to the telemetry channels. My reasons are in the movements of the steering wheel as depicted on Cineca’s videos and by the way the car left the circuit. In the National Geographic program devoted to the crush ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8adA0lJnHoA ), it was claimed that the movements of the steering wheel traced by Cineca are intentionally designed into the steering column, which (at least to me) sounds as ridiculous as the sniper story. The Williams team claims that the steering column broke after the crush (with a POSSIBLE and ADMITTED fatigue fracture happening before that), but to me it is unimaginable that the crush itself can break the column, taking into account that the part of the monocoque housing the column is intact and that a possible angular acceleration of the column during the crush will put as much torque into the column as to accelerate the steering wheel only (calculations of the forces involved is possible using the design scheme of the steering column http://www.cineca.it/sap/files/zip/disegno2_b.gif ). I would also like to see the steering wheel angle trace (from the telemetry channel), which if I am not wrong, for some reason is not shown on the combined Cineca video.

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Moanlower
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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wesley123 wrote:
Gecko wrote:You have a disturbingly vivid imagination, wesley123.

Why do you say his head movement is "lifeless"? Just where did you get that idea? If you check the tape very carefully, the moment he tilts the head is the moment he turns the steering wheel fully because the car started to understeer off the track. To do that an F1 driver must cross the arms, and probably tilt the upper body and therefore the head as well. It's hard to say what happened exactly from the video, but why go for an out of the world explanation when a very straightforward one is readily available.
I say that because his had is shaking a bit due to Gforces and in the turn his head goes a bit to the left due to G Forces, and then his head moves completely to the left like he is dead
On a left turn you push your head to the left to counter the G-forces. When these forces are suddenly gone when not expecting it by going straight your head goes hard to the left.
Losers focus on winners, winners focus on winning.

Belatti
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Good post nas! Welcome to the forum!

Your deeper level of analysis made me remember a person wich would certainly clear out all of our doubts. His name is Dr. Norberto Arnaldo Donadei. I wish he could write something here, would definitively make this thread richer.

http://debates.coches.net/showthread.php?t=57838
I was shouting "Senna Senna" there...
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

segedunum
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Senna's death was his own fault, but that probably didn't come out because F1 and Williams wanted no suspicion cast over them.

Throughout Senna's career, certainly when he was at Lotus, his standard response to a lack of speed in a car was to drop the ride height of the car far lower than most drivers were prepared to go and drive the wheels off it. You can see that he did this at Brazil in 1994, and his qualifying lap was full of sparks and a haze where the car consistently bottomed out on the circuit. Brazil, being a bumpy circuit, causes problems here, but because Interlagos isn't particularly high speed he got away with it albeit spinning off.

At Imola, the circuit was ridiculously bumpy, and yet, Senna insisted on a ride height setting that was far lower than Damona Hill's. You can see this from the shots of both cars. Senna produced far more sparks and haze from the undertray, and the onboard shot of his last lap is very telling. When downforce was applied to the car there was a very low pitched drone that was nothing like the normal engine note you would hear, and it only returned to normal when the downforce had come off in a slow corner. This means that there was no part of the circuit virtually where the car was not bottoming out. In 1994 we also had a ban on Active Suspension, and this simply made an unstable car even more unstable.

I've said that he got away with bottoming at Interlagos because the corners are much slower. In a high speed corner, bottoming is suicide. What happens is that the underside of the car ends up steering the car in a straight line, and because of the force involved, it becomes impossible to steer out of it, thus you see Senna really trying to get the car to go left. This is totally compounded when you have a car that needs an aerodynamic balance both over and under the car, and the effect of this is impossible to tell.

Until I see something that disproves the above (and there is very audible and visual evidence for the above), then the notion that Williams killed Senna, that there was a steering column failure or that he was shot is just the usual bollocks from people who refuse to believe that Senna wasn't quite as God-like and invincible as they want him to be. The steering failure theory is baloney, because you had to see how bumpy Imola was, you had to see and hear how much contact there was between the track and Senna's car and you have to understand the effects of serious bottoming in a high speed corner.

Did Williams and the wider F1 team cover up? Yes they did, because they simply didn't want any suspicion cast on Formula One. Did they kill Senna? No they didn't at all. Senna killed himself, which is why Villeneuve was not allowed to try a lower ride height and stiff suspension set up at the Williams for quite some time.

nas
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Thanks Belatti, your praise is very much appreciated.

Segedunum, my point is NOT that Williams killed Senna – he was killed due to unfortunate set of circumstances or rather lower safety standards of the 1994’s cars (relative to the present day cars) as well as the corner barriers of the time.

The steering column DID fail, the difference between the prosecutors’ and Williams’ opinions is when it happened – before or after the crush. Besides, I get very frustrated when I see people coming up with ridiculous things like the flexibility designed into the steering column as depicted in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8adA0lJnHoA as a way of explaining the unusual movements of the steering wheel just before the car left the circuit.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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segedunum wrote:Senna's death was his own fault, but that probably didn't come out because F1 and Williams wanted no suspicion cast over them.

Throughout Senna's career, certainly when he was at Lotus, his standard response to a lack of speed in a car was to drop the ride height of the car far lower than most drivers were prepared to go and drive the wheels off it. You can see that he did this at Brazil in 1994, and his qualifying lap was full of sparks and a haze where the car consistently bottomed out on the circuit. Brazil, being a bumpy circuit, causes problems here, but because Interlagos isn't particularly high speed he got away with it albeit spinning off.

At Imola, the circuit was ridiculously bumpy, and yet, Senna insisted on a ride height setting that was far lower than Damona Hill's. You can see this from the shots of both cars. Senna produced far more sparks and haze from the undertray, and the onboard shot of his last lap is very telling. When downforce was applied to the car there was a very low pitched drone that was nothing like the normal engine note you would hear, and it only returned to normal when the downforce had come off in a slow corner. This means that there was no part of the circuit virtually where the car was not bottoming out. In 1994 we also had a ban on Active Suspension, and this simply made an unstable car even more unstable.

I've said that he got away with bottoming at Interlagos because the corners are much slower. In a high speed corner, bottoming is suicide. What happens is that the underside of the car ends up steering the car in a straight line, and because of the force involved, it becomes impossible to steer out of it, thus you see Senna really trying to get the car to go left. This is totally compounded when you have a car that needs an aerodynamic balance both over and under the car, and the effect of this is impossible to tell.

Until I see something that disproves the above (and there is very audible and visual evidence for the above), then the notion that Williams killed Senna, that there was a steering column failure or that he was shot is just the usual bollocks from people who refuse to believe that Senna wasn't quite as God-like and invincible as they want him to be. The steering failure theory is baloney, because you had to see how bumpy Imola was, you had to see and hear how much contact there was between the track and Senna's car and you have to understand the effects of serious bottoming in a high speed corner.

Did Williams and the wider F1 team cover up? Yes they did, because they simply didn't want any suspicion cast on Formula One. Did they kill Senna? No they didn't at all. Senna killed himself, which is why Villeneuve was not allowed to try a lower ride height and stiff suspension set up at the Williams for quite some time.
that makes a lot of sense.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

donskar
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Love the various threads in F1Tech.net. They range from the sublime to the ridiculous, but are always interesting.

This one rates right up there with the thread on Max Mosley's adventures in terms of what it tells us about OURSELVES.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

Belatti
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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WhiteBlue wrote:
segedunum wrote:...quote]

that makes a lot of sense.
Second that! =D>
donskar wrote:Love the various threads in F1Tech.net. They range from the sublime to the ridiculous, but are always interesting.

This one rates right up there with the thread on Max Mosley's adventures in terms of what it tells us about OURSELVES.
That, too!
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Giblet
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Let the man rest in peace.

Please.

Nothing will bring him back.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Belatti
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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He has never left!
en 1994, en la retransmision de argentina, tuvo lugar esta conversacion entre Juan Manuel Fangio y el Dr.Donadei

Fangio: Pense que nunca se iba a matar

Dr. Donadei: Juan, sólo le voy a decir una cosa: Nuvolari, Ayrton y usted no se van a morir nunca. Sólo se mueren los que son olvidados. Y Ayrton, a vos, ¿quién puede olvidarte?
I´ll try to translate:

In 1994, Argentinian TV coverage, there was a conversation between Juan Manuel Fangio and Dr.Donadei

Fangio: I thought he was never going to die

Dr. Donadei: Juan, I´m only going to say one thing: Nuvolari, Ayrton and you are never going to die. Only dies those who are forgoten. And Ayrton, who can forget you?
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

FGD
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Such stupidity.

John Stitch
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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I dont think the guy who started the thread posted the source of his quote.

I'd appreciate it if he would do that. Thanks

Jimmy Joe Meeker
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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I felt quite ill reading the quote in the first post, Im glad some sensible comments have been made to counter the conspiracy theory.
I have heard similar over the years, mainly concerning the missing onboard footage, personally I have never found it anything other than normal that in such a heavy impact the transmission cut out. There does seem even with modern onboard cameras a slight delay in pictures being transmitted. The crash Heikki Kovalainen had at the spanish GP for instance, the feed cutout as the nose impacted the tyre wall. This happened I believe because an instant later the aerials on the car (if any of them are for tv pictures)and the T-cam were destroyed by the impact so the last images from the camera were not transmitted. I always believed in Senna's crash that the transmitter or power source was damaged on impact so the final few frames were lost not removed.