Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Welcome, Jimmy Joe Meeker.

Besides the damages you mention, the only time I've crashed with a camera on board (in a kart), the image "disappeared" on impact. I mean, the tape went blank for a few seconds, even with a camera with no radio relay (an ordinary tape recorder, I mean) and even when the camera continued to work after the (mild) crash.

I agree with Jhon Stitch: the bad thing about conspiracy theories is the lack of background... ;)

Sorry, Belatti, if I tried to make fun of the theory about Senna's death. I was tiptoeing as much as I could, thinking about the Seinfeld episode "The Boyfriend".

Kramer: I hate Keith Hernandez. Hate him.
Newman: I despise him.
Elaine: Why?
Newman: Why? I tell you why? June 14, 1987, Mets Phillies. We're enjoying a beautiful afternoon in the right field stands when a crucial Hernandez error opens the door to a five run Phillies ninth. Cost the Mets the game.
Kramer: Our day was ruined. There was a lot of people, you know they were waiting by the player's parking lot. Now we're coming down the ramp ...

(cuts to a flashback filmed in the same style as the Zapruder film)

... Newman was in front of me. Hernandez was coming toward us, as he passes Newman turns and says, "Nice game pretty boy." Keith continued past us up the ramp.
Newman: Then a second later, something happened that changed us in a deep and profound way from that day forward.
Elaine: What was it?
Kramer: He spit on us... and I screamed out, "I'm hit!"
Newman: Then I turned and the spit ricochet off him and it hit me.
Elaine: Wow, what a story.
Jerry: Unfortunately the immutable laws of physics contradict the whole premise of your account.
Allow me to reconstruct this if I may for Miss Benes as I've heard this story a number of times.
Newman, Kramer, if you'll indulge me.
According to your story Hernandez passes you and starts walking up the ramp.
Then you say you were struck on the right temple.
The spit then proceeds to ricochet off the temple striking Newman between the third and fourth rib.
The spit then came off the rib made a right turn hitting Newman in the right wrist causing him to drop his baseball cap.
The spit then splashed off the wrist, In mid air mind you...
Makes a left turn, and lands on Newman's left thigh.
That is one magic loogie.
Ciro

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Of all the tragedies in Formula One, the Senna crash has been examined the most. Every aspect, every part, and every piece of evidence was collected and examined by many, many intelligent people. The conclusion was the only logical explanation, and personally, I'm more than satisfied.
Wild conspiracy theories and assassination plots are not appropriate for his death, please let him rest in respectful peace.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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nas wrote:The steering column DID fail, the difference between the prosecutors’ and Williams’ opinions is when it happened – before or after the crush.
There is no evidence that the steering column, failed causing the crash. Never has been. In fact, there was telemetry evidence that it had stayed intact. It came out of an assumption that something must have failed on the car. Unless somebody, and the investigators never did in a month of Sundays, eliminate why Senna's car made this noise, and moved around so much on his final lap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aP50TbDnWw

then all other theories of mechanical failures or foul play are just plain speculation. I mean, come on, listen to what sound the engine makes as downforce is applied to the car and look at the on board shot as Senna moves into Tamburello. The car is moving around like it's on ice.
Besides, I get very frustrated when I see people coming up with ridiculous things like the flexibility designed into the steering column...
I was highly sceptical about that as well, and while there is usually some give in how much a wheel can move by no wheel should ever move by that much. However, from the video you showed it was said that "The effort to deflect it by this much is quite considerable...", which means that while the wheel has some give it is only with some considerable force. Given that Senna was desperately trying to get his car to turn left at the time and would have been pulling on the wheel pretty damn hard, this seems entirely plausible. Besides, telemetry showed that the power to the power steering was still being applied right up until the accident, but was moving around in a slightly erratic fashion around the time of the problem, as you might expect if the wheel was being pulled hard over and another force was overriding the steering and pushing the car straight on.

The whole steering column failure theory depends on the supposed movement and the proper position of a yellow button. Until the above evidence of the behaviour of Senna's car is investigated and discounted, I can't see the whole steering column theory as a productive use of investigative time. To tell you the truth, I don't think Williams or the FIA knew the exact cause of the accident at all, hence the butt covering to safeguard Formula One (I don't believe the loss of TV coverage excuse), but the regulations that came in afterwards, such as the wooden planks and minimum ride height specifications, tell you a lot about what they thought the problem was.

One piece of evidence did come out during the trial from Damon Hill that I thought was very interesting, but is totally overlooked. I can't remember where I read it, and it might have been in Richard Williams's book, but Damon said something to the effect of: "I set my car up in a way where I thought I could finish the race. I didn't think Senna could".

wesley123
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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John Stitch wrote:I dont think the guy who started the thread posted the source of his quote.

I'd appreciate it if he would do that. Thanks
I posted the link to the movie on the third or fourth page and if you click on more/meer there will be standing the whole post i posted at the first
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Perplexity
Perplexity
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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segedunum wrote: One piece of evidence did come out during the trial from Damon Hill that I thought was very interesting, but is totally overlooked. I can't remember where I read it, and it might have been in Richard Williams's book, but Damon said something to the effect of: "I set my car up in a way where I thought I could finish the race. I didn't think Senna could".
According to Damon Hill in the TIMES ONLINE, Apr 17 2004:

"I drove an identical car in the same race. I remember everything only too well."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 826864.ece

Perplexity
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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segedunum wrote:
nas wrote:
Besides, I get very frustrated when I see people coming up with ridiculous things like the flexibility designed into the steering column...
I was highly sceptical about that as well, and while there is usually some give in how much a wheel can move by no wheel should ever move by that much. However, from the video you showed it was said that "The effort to deflect it by this much is quite considerable...", which means that while the wheel has some give it is only with some considerable force. Given that Senna was desperately trying to get his car to turn left at the time and would have been pulling on the wheel pretty damn hard, this seems entirely plausible.
What would be the evidence of such a despair?

According to Williams the power steering was in working order. Do you rather mean to suggest that the steering was already inadequate or faulty and Senna was aware of this?

According to Alboretto's interpretation of the video evidence Senna had already realised that something was wrong so lifted his foot on and off the accelerator at the previous bend:

http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/newsfle7.html

:?:

eidetic
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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zac510 wrote:Don't spoil the forum with this rubbish.

PS, assassination can only occur to a political figure.
Not true. There's varying definitions of course, but an assassination is generally just a targeted killing. That is, a murder of someone, usually high profile (maybe not internationally known, but at least known in certain circles. For example, a gang leader unknown to most of the world may be assassinated by a rival gang member.) That said, many assassinations are done for political or ideological reasons.

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gcdugas
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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There had to be a second spitter!
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

maxG
maxG
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Greetings to all,

segedunum wrote:Senna's death was his own fault, but that probably didn't come out because F1 and Williams wanted no suspicion cast over them.

Throughout Senna's career, certainly when he was at Lotus, his standard response to a lack of speed in a car was to drop the ride height of the car far lower than most drivers were prepared to go and drive the wheels off it. You can see that he did this at Brazil in 1994, and his qualifying lap was full of sparks and a haze where the car consistently bottomed out on the circuit. Brazil, being a bumpy circuit, causes problems here, but because Interlagos isn't particularly high speed he got away with it albeit spinning off.

At Imola, the circuit was ridiculously bumpy, and yet, Senna insisted on a ride height setting that was far lower than Damona Hill's. You can see this from the shots of both cars. Senna produced far more sparks and haze from the undertray, and the onboard shot of his last lap is very telling. When downforce was applied to the car there was a very low pitched drone that was nothing like the normal engine note you would hear, and it only returned to normal when the downforce had come off in a slow corner. This means that there was no part of the circuit virtually where the car was not bottoming out. In 1994 we also had a ban on Active Suspension, and this simply made an unstable car even more unstable.

I've said that he got away with bottoming at Interlagos because the corners are much slower. In a high speed corner, bottoming is suicide. What happens is that the underside of the car ends up steering the car in a straight line, and because of the force involved, it becomes impossible to steer out of it, thus you see Senna really trying to get the car to go left. This is totally compounded when you have a car that needs an aerodynamic balance both over and under the car, and the effect of this is impossible to tell.
You seem to be forgetting one thing: Senna was an extremely talented and experienced F1 driver. He had an excellent technical understanding and a great sense of 'feel' for the car. He had driven many laps of the Imola circuit and knew about the bumps in the Tamburello. If he sensed there was a ride-height problem he would have planned ahead for possible changes in car stability over the bumps. Your idea suggests Senna was 'caught-out' by an unexpected situation. I don't think so, maybe a novice could make this mistake, but no, not Senna.

That said, the idea that Senna was assassinated is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, for all the reasons others have already stated plus one other: The medical practitioners who treated Senna would have noticed a bullet wound, and therefore would have had to be 'in' on the conspiracy. Clearly that's impossible; the medical profession is perhaps the most noble and ethical of all, not to mention that Professor Watkins was Senna's friend. I find the mere suggestion of some kind of cover-up on the part of these good people to be utterly offensive to say the least.

A very sad day indeed, rest in peace Senna.

Ferrim
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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wesley123 wrote:Look at the video - the EXACT split-second (at 11.4 secs) the car stops turning and goes dead straight (cornering G-force goes to 0) Senna's head slumps to the left. (It's been suggested that with the quick loss of cornering G, his head would jerk slightly. But the slump is more pronounced than slight jerk, and worse - external video clearly shows his head never came up again!) Other internal videos with audio reveal the engine note merely trails away - NO brakes (and the telemetry shows no brake application but mere releasing of throttle (irregularly - in 2 stages - indicating lost consciousness)!
Untrue. His head slumps to the left but keeps moving a bit. And telemetry SHOWED hard braking and full releasing of throttle.
wesley123 wrote:A split-second before his head slumps, a brief picture distortion occurs - indicating electromagnetic interference from metallic bullet moving at more than the speed of sound.
Yeah. So he was shot several times during the previous lap, from different places, you can see that a lot of times in the video. He was shot not less than 10 times, judging for all the picture distortion moments on the final lap video (you can find it on Youtube).

That statement makes me remember Kevin Costner's interpretation of Jim Garrison in JFK, when he said there were six shots on the assasination :mrgreen:
wesley123 wrote:Helmet pics in the Senna Files website - clearly show a bullet hole in the visor - yet hardly any helmet damage. German newspapers published a photo of him taken just before he was put in the helicopter - he was grey (from blood loss) but the only visible damage was a small (3cm) cut above the right eyebrow.
That hole was a manufacturing one and was for ventilation, there was another, although covered, in the other side. That's stated even by the Senna Files website, which is clearly supportive of the broke steering column theory.

Can you link to that photo supposedly taken by "German" newspapers?
wesley123 wrote:The doctor who recieved him at hospital (Dr. Maria Teresa Fiandri) gave an image very different from the rumours about his face; "He came to me pale but beautiful and serene. It is the image that I remember. He had a cut on the forehead, three or four centimeters, nothing more. But when we turn him, I saw that he had much blood. And I wondered: "But from where come too much blood?" It came from the back, the base of the skull." (She then said when they washed his suit (to return it to the family) - the water turned red. (In fact Senna lost 4.5 litres of blood - 90% of the body's total - ie. MASSIVE blood loss.)) So - small wound at front of head, large wound at back of head = Bullet! (Anyway: Suspension arm is big and flat - not small and round like the hole in the visor.)
Again, the hole was from manufacturing. And why a bullet would make a large wound at back of head? Most bullets enter the brain and stop there, they don't cross the head from side to side.

And the final part about the Illuminati is bollocks, just silly and makes you feel ill.

mrk189
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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actually, bullet holes to the head generally leave larger exit wounds...
You don't need a licence to drive a sandwich

kiloton
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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I don't believe in the "Illuminatti" thing. Anyway, there is a CLEAN PUNCTURE on the Senna's helmet. This puncture should have been made by the suspension bar.

However, the suspension bar is THICKER. The puncture should be bigger. Also, the suspension bar should have made a deep scratch on the helmet side. The puncture would not be a perfect circle.

So, that puncture looks like shot. Could have been made by a bullet. The rest was made by the impact.

Giblet
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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Please be aware you are responding to a two year old comment like it was posted yesterday.

Let the man rest in peace.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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Steven
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Re: Ayrton Senna Murdered

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DaveKillens wrote:Of all the tragedies in Formula One, the Senna crash has been examined the most. Every aspect, every part, and every piece of evidence was collected and examined by many, many intelligent people. The conclusion was the only logical explanation, and personally, I'm more than satisfied.
Wild conspiracy theories and assassination plots are not appropriate for his death, please let him rest in respectful peace.
As usual, a very sensible look at things. No need to discuss this further. RIP.