Silly Season 2011/2012

[Mr.S]

Brawn had Ross Brawn. Williams have an old Frank Williams.

Brawn had huge Honda money & resources & BGP 01 was literally in development for 2 years.Williams are literally begging.

Most of all Brawn had Jenson Button who is fantastic driver & a capable WDC. Even Rubens Barrichello is a fantastic No.2 with vast experience & will win races & help in winning teh WCC.

I don't think anybody expects Bruno Senna or Pastor Maldonado to lead Williams to the Double.

Anyways Titles are generally not won on pure speed alone. A lot of time on strategy,intelligence,the ability of soak up the pressure & performing at the time. Even HRT's drivers are better than Williams.

I fail to understand how is Senna or Pastor better than Buemi or Jamie???

[manchild]

Honda had been working on the 2009 concept for an awful long time, and decided to produce a poor 2008 car to take time to develop the 09 car. It was very publicly aware that Honda were pushing for 2009, and didn't come to much of a surprise to me when the Brawn was right up there.

Oh c'mon. It wasn't a surprise that backmarkers which Honda was since 2007, wins both WCC and WDC in 2009, simply because they've spent one season working on car for next one? By that logic, even any new team would have more chances of winning after entering than any existing top team.

Brawn had Ross Brawn. Williams have an old Frank Williams.

Brawn had huge Honda money & resources & BGP 01 was literally in development for 2 years.Williams are literally begging.

Brawn had Todt and Todt had Mosley to give clearance to DDD to Brawn but not to Renault for instance. Williams isn't begging, they can close the shop anytime, and withdraw in all their glory, as one of the cleanest teams ever.

Most of all Brawn had Jenson Button who is fantastic driver & a capable WDC. Even Rubens Barrichello is a fantastic No.2 with vast experience & will win races & help in winning teh WCC.

No body thought that Button is fantastic driver back than, just as no one knows about Senna's potential. Before Brawn technical supremacy, Button was just another eternally promising midfielder. It takes a top car to show driver's full potential, and Bruno hasn't driven one yet.

I don't think anybody expects Bruno Senna or Pastor Maldonado to lead Williams to the Double.

Again, during 2008/2009 winter break, absolutely no one thought that Button and Barrichello will lead Brawn to the podium, hardly the double.

Even HRT's drivers are better than Williams.

I fail to understand how is Senna or Pastor better than Buemi or Jamie???

No one is saying that he is better or worse driver than those you've mentioned. It takes time to see driver performing from backmarkers to good car or top team. If Senna drove same car as them, in the same team, than we could compare shown quality.

[WhiteBlue]

Based on what are some saying farewell to Williams?...

So, what makes Williams' winning odds lesser than Honda's were?

Interesting questions, manchild!

Williams is very special as one of the oldest constructors with a huge reputation and a massive win record to their name. Compared to their reputation they have under achieved for a long time and they never had a season as bad as the last. They also have been on a steady way down over several seasons and the big question really is if the new technical leadership will be able to produce a much better car than Sam Michael managed.

Much will depend of resources even in resource restricted F1 world. And here we come to the second question. The brawn turn around wasn't just based on Brawn or the good luck of interpreting the diffusor rule in the right way. It was also pushed by the most expensive single development budget for an F1 car ever. At least that was rumored in the F1 world, and it will not be too far off the mark. So here you go.

Good luck to Williams, but in my book the odds are certainly higher than those I would have given under the same circumstances as Brawn some years ago. And good luck to Bruno as well. He will always be in the shadow of his uncle. So he also is expected to do much better than last year and it will not be easy to fulfil the expectations.

[jordangp]

Honda had been working on the 2009 concept for an awful long time, and decided to produce a poor 2008 car to take time to develop the 09 car. It was very publicly aware that Honda were pushing for 2009, and didn't come to much of a surprise to me when the Brawn was right up there.

Oh c'mon. It wasn't a surprise that backmarkers which Honda was since 2007, wins both WCC and WDC in 2009, simply because they've spent one season working on car for next one? By that logic, even any new team would have more chances of winning after entering than any existing top team.

They'd been working since, barely did any work on 2008 car, as they spent most of that coming up with innovations for 2009, 1 of which of course was the DDD. They put all their emphasis from 07/08 into the 09 car, which was made public by the team, surely you remember this? Everyone was in the knowledge that this was happening. So I thought Honda would be right up at top for 2009, and of course, they were. No surprise for me.

[Mr.S]

Honda is a Top team. You cant pick & choose & twist facts, Honda was the 2nd fastest team in 2004. Honda has huge resources & money while Willams is essentially a beggar.

Anyways in 2006,Jenson won races,Barichello got points. Honda were a great team by mid-table standards atleast or Williams standards & got heaps of point. Jenson had pole in Australia. Jenson Button scored as many points as runner up Michael Schumacher in the last 3rd of the season. Anyways Jenson had 1 Race win,3 Podiums & 5 4th places in the 2006 season

Barichello had a podium in 2008 which was another dissapointing year after 2007.

NBut Honda had Money,a great manager in Brawn,huge resources,people,2 Very good drivers & a killer innovation in DD. Williams have nothing. They are basically begging for money & renting the seat in return.

[WhiteBlue]

... Willams is essentially a beggar.

That is a provocative way to put it. The company is listed and the valuation is exceeding €100m. You should rethink your voiced opinion IMO.

[mx_tifoso]

Barrichello off to sports cars or prototypes a la Jean Alesi and Fisichella?

[manchild]

Thanks WB

Honda is a Top team. You cant pick & choose & twist facts, Honda was the 2nd fastest team in 2004. Honda has huge resources & money while Willams is essentially a beggar.

Anyways in 2006,Jenson won races,Barichello got points. Honda were a great team by mid-table standards atleast or Williams standards & got heaps of point. Jenson had pole in Australia. Jenson Button scored as many points as runner up Michael Schumacher in the last 3rd of the season. Anyways Jenson had 1 Race win,3 Podiums & 5 4th places in the 2006 season

Barichello had a podium in 2008 which was another dissapointing year after 2007.

But Honda had Money,a great manager in Brawn,huge resources,people,2 Very good drivers & a killer innovation in DD. Williams have nothing. They are basically begging for money & renting the seat in return.

How about pointing out where Honda was in 2007 and 2008?

Williams - 2010 6th of 12 teams, 2011 9th of 12 teams.

Honda - 2007 8th of 10 teams, 2008 9th of 10 teams.

Honda was never a top team. They had a promise of becoming top team after 2006 climb, but it never happened. Button's single weather-caused lucky win, equals Panis' and Ligier win in Monaco 1996. No one called Panis a fantastic driver and Ligier a top team because of it.

Renault had "killer" innovative DD for 2009 too, but FIA said no to them, yes to Brawn.

Williams currently has best packed gearbox and rear suspension, lightest gearbox, supreme aero efficiency of whole coke bottle region end because of that revolutionary gearbox they've developed. Unfortunately, sometimes being years ahead with certain element of the car, doesn't bring success if car under performs for other reasons. Ferrari had sequential paddle shifting gearbox in 1989, and yet it took them more than a decade to win title.

Sir Frank Williams is a gentleman player, a true sportsman. He isn't begging, because he was never into sport for quick cash and marketing, unlike so many contemporary teams and owners. Williams is constructing their own car, and they are going to compete in 2012, like it or not. That is how they did since day one, and when they loose ambition, they'll come up and publicly call it a day.

[andartop]

Excellent, Senna is a really nice solid driver, he's shown some flashes of genius occasionally, hopefully a full season in a mid-field team should cement him in other teams' minds.

Is Williams still considered a "mid-field" team???

Hopefully something good will come out of this. Rubens will finally have the time to start writing his book...

[ESPImperium]

Williams 2011 gearbox was the best packaged mechanically, but not aerodynamically as it was reportedly too fat loosing as much as 20% of the rear downforce at the diffuser and it wasn't as light as people have been led to believe, rumour had it it was around 45kilos, where the Red Bull Technology one is 37kg to 42kg but was better in terms of aero.

Williams budget was €95.6m last year, which is around €32m per point. Honda in 2008 budget was €370m and scored 14 points, which is around €26.5m per point.

WIlliams have suffered from years of lack of investment, they are a traditional team trying to look modern. By this I mean they need around €40m investment in infrastructure and equipment over the next 3 years just to stay put, ideally they need €70m over 3 years. They also need to streamline and modernise their workforce, they have a workforce base of around 560 to 610, if they can run from a base of around 475 to 500 that would be ideal for me. With this they need to get their workforce and management structure more or less similar to what the top guys have been doing.

Williams need to look at Force India who have became the 6th team with a budget of €125m and a workforce of around 320 to 350. Also Sauber and Toro Rosso have a budget of around €100m to €110m and a work base of around 350.

Williams need to streamline, become more efficient and also invest over the next 3 years to climb back up the grid and become the 5th team again.

The real kick in the teeth will be if Caterham come bounding into the mid pack next year scoring points within the first 4 to 6 GP and put the FW34 into Q3 regularly. Caterham use the same engine and also use the Williams wind tunnel as well. That will be a kick in the goenads for the team.

[WhiteBlue]

WIlliams have suffered from years of lack of investment, they are a traditional team trying to look modern. By this I mean they need around €40m investment in infrastructure and equipment over the next 3 years just to stay put, ideally they need €70m over 3 years. They also need to streamline and modernise their workforce, they have a workforce base of around 560 to 610, if they can run from a base of around 475 to 500 that would be ideal for me. With this they need to get their workforce and management structure more or less similar to what the top guys have been doing.

ESPI, you often have interesting data in your posts, but you do not usually give any sources. That makes them questionable for many readers including me. It would be good to have a clearer separation of opinion and hard facts. And when you believe some figures but have no sources to back them up it would be better to let us know.

[mx_tifoso]

Let's get back to the original intent of this thread; discussing the driver market and where it stands today.

Does anyone have an updated list at hand? I've kind of lost track.

[beelsebob]

RBR:
1. Vettel
2. Webber
McLaren:
3. Button
4. Hamilton
Ferrari:
5. Alonso
6. Massa
Merc:
7. Rosberg
8. Schumacher
Lotus:
9. Raikonnen
10. Groejean
Force India:
11. DiResta
12. Hulkenburg
Sauber:
13. Kobayashi
14. Perez
Torro Rosso
15. Ricciardo
16. Vergne
Williams:
17. Maldonado ... Should this be senna? He finished ahead of Maldonado last year
18. Senna
Caterham:
19. Kovalienen
20. Trulli
HRT:
21. DeLaRosa
22. ????
Marusia:
23. Glock
24. Pic

Did I make any mistakes? Has HRT decided on their second driver?

[ESPImperium]

WIlliams have suffered from years of lack of investment, they are a traditional team trying to look modern. By this I mean they need around €40m investment in infrastructure and equipment over the next 3 years just to stay put, ideally they need €70m over 3 years. They also need to streamline and modernise their workforce, they have a workforce base of around 560 to 610, if they can run from a base of around 475 to 500 that would be ideal for me. With this they need to get their workforce and management structure more or less similar to what the top guys have been doing.

ESPI, you often have interesting data in your posts, but you do not usually give any sources. That makes them questionable for many readers including me. It would be good to have a clearer separation of opinion and hard facts. And when you believe some figures but have no sources to back them up it would be better to let us know.

I get my information on budgets from Sports Pro magazines Black Book of F1 (Just ordered the 2012 one yesterday, will get it in April) and as for team numbers, blogs and Autosport and F1Racing magazine articles, no to mention listening to what the guys on F1 broadcasts and news segments on TV say as well. And also my photographic (or semi photographic) memory. Ill try to seperate in the future as well.

[WhiteBlue]

Spelling mostly. Correct spelling in bolded.

RBR:
1. Vettel
2. Webber

McLaren:
3. Button
4. Hamilton

Ferrari:
5. Alonso
6. Massa

Merc:
7. Schumacher
8. Rosberg

Lotus:
9. Räikkönen
10. Grosjean

Force India:
11. Di Resta
12. Hülkenberg

Sauber:
14. Kobayashi
15. Perez

Torro Rosso:
16. Ricciardo
17. Vergne

Williams:
18. Maldonado
19. Senna

Caterham:
20. Kovalainen
21. Trulli

HRT:
22. De la Rosa
23. ????

Marussia:
24. Glock
25. Pic

Strictly in English spelling umlauts like ö, ü and ä would be written oe, ue and ae, but Wikipedia used the umlauts. So I have carried that on.

There is usually no car #13 on the grid. I have adjusted the numbering accordingly.