Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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I understand and agree Tim because we are talking range not weight. Correct?
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FW17
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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I am not saying that car should have a range of of only 30 miles, I am saying that the battery should be limited, while having a range extender onboard for range anxiety.

Commercial vehicles on the other hand should be pushed to full BEV as the number of vehicles are less but usage is more.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Why limiting the battery than, it makes no sense?

If you really want to have a range extender.. Here it is:

The new hydrogen Toyota Mirai. Range somewhat like 400miles. Purchase price of these cars will be equal of BEV in only a few years.

Image

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Range extenders are utterly pointless, they are just dead weight and added servicing complexity being dragged around! They add to the vehicle service costs also.

Battery charging tech is improving rapidly and I doubt very much charge times will be an issue in another 10 years.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Brake Horse Power wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:10 am
Why limiting the battery than, it makes no sense?

If you really want to have a range extender.. Here it is:

The new hydrogen Toyota Mirai. Range somewhat like 400miles. Purchase price of these cars will be equal of BEV in only a few years.

https://t1-cms-3.images.toyota-europe.c ... 776316.jpg
What's the hydrogen infrastructure like where you live? In the UK, you'd use most of the range driving to and from the filling station as they are few and far between even in London.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Brake Horse Power wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:10 am
Why limiting the battery than, it makes no sense?

If you really want to have a range extender.. Here it is:

The new hydrogen Toyota Mirai. Range somewhat like 400miles. Purchase price of these cars will be equal of BEV in only a few years.

https://t1-cms-3.images.toyota-europe.c ... 776316.jpg
Oh how interesting! I didn't know you can actually buy one. But if it flops they won't know if it was for being hydrogen or the ugliest car in history. Ew lol (not the one in your pic i looked it up)
Last edited by izzy on Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

AJI
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andy Cowell's mid 2016 view on range extenders. It's from an ESPN interview, but I've heard him talk about vee twin mgu-h range extenders in several publications now.

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How two-cylinder engines and F1 technology could redefine road cars

Formula One technology combined with small capacity engines could form the basis of future road car powertrains, according to Mercedes' F1 engine boss Andy Cowell.

The current F1 engine regulations were designed to promote hybrid technologies, and since their introduction in 2014 manufacturers have improved thermal efficiency from 29 percent to more than 45 percent, meaning more than 45 percent of the potential energy in the fuel is delivered to the crankshaft. Cowell believes those efficiency gains will start to filter down to road cars in the near future, allowing family-sized cars to be powered by small capacity, two-cylinder engines.

Asked what drivetrain he would use if he was designing the next generation of Mercedes C-Class, Cowell came up with a proposal quite different to the brand's current offering of straight fours, V6s and V8s.

"If I get the job of the next C-Class and we can get parts for free -- so somebody doesn't pull the cost out of it without destroying the efficiency -- you would definitely go for a very small capacity engine, tiny, maybe half a litre," he said. "It would be less than three cylinders, down at 400cc -- let's start talking about cc and not litres. So a 400cc, 90-degree, v-twin with 200bhp!"

Cowell's two-cylinder engine concept would be turbocharged much like the current F1 engines, with an F1-style MGU-H used to control turbine speeds and combat turbo-lag. Independent MGU-Ks would be fitted on the front wheels to harvest energy under braking and provide all wheel drive when necessary under acceleration.

"I hate brake discs getting warm on any vehicle, so it's probably going to have an electric machine at the front two corners -- if we are staying rear-wheel drive for a nice driving experience. So one electric machine on the powertrain, two electric machines on the front that have got enough power to absorb over half a G braking.

"You would have a miniaturised version of the F1 assembly to recover energy from the turbine and you would use that when you really want to get away from the traffic lights. So you'd have the front drive motors providing four-wheel drive, you'd have the engine pulling you away and then when you want to do your zero emissions around town, you would have used the engine in the suburbs to make sure the battery is full [for full electric use].

"You need a decent battery, efficient power electronics and then it's a question of how much would the engine actually be doing? At that point is it not just a range extender? Is it not that the C-Class has a 400cc, v-twin range extender that sits there and operates at full throttle with around 54% thermal efficiency?"

The MGU-H on an F1 car controls the turbine speed for optimum boost pressure, with excess energy either harvested and stored in the battery or delivered straight to the crank shaft via the MGU-K. One of the biggest differences between the demands on an F1 power unit and that of a road car is that a driver on the road is unlikely to employ full throttle or maximum braking on a regular basis. Cowell said that would have to be considered on the road car engine design.

"It's the drive cycle aspect of whether the electric machine recovering from the turbine is of merit, because how many of us drive our road cars at full throttle? Not many. And even if we do, it's only for a few seconds. The electric turbo recovering from the turbine needs full throttle, which is then where you are getting into the electric machine doing even more."

Despite the growing popularity of electric cars in recent years, Cowell sees hybrid gasoline engines as the future for journeys outside cities.

"I think there is a beautiful partnership between high-voltage hybrid systems and internal combustion engines where they can help each other," he explained. "There is a huge problem with the mass of batteries in pure electric vehicles. Cars need to have low aerodynamic losses and be lightweight [to be efficient], but as soon as you say 'lightweight' and 'electric vehicle' there is a huge conflict. So what you want is a system that recovers all that kinetic energy and a system that uses gasoline because gasoline has great energy density. But you want an engine that converts that at greater than 50% efficiency to useful work.

"If in the future we are all going to be living in cities and close together, then electric cars are fine. But we need to make sure that the electricity comes from an honourable source -- it's very important that we keep an eye on that. What comes out of our three-pin [wall] socket hasn't necessarily come from a great source.

"If it's coming from solar panels on all the buildings then fine, but if it's coming from coal-fired power stations or gas turbines, I don't think it's that honourable. In cities an EV [electric vehicle] with zero emissions is perfect, but as soon as we start doing say 100km or maybe even 80km -- not a big number -- then a hybrid makes more sense."
https://www.espn.com.au/f1/story/_/id/1 ... -road-cars

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:09 am
What's the hydrogen infrastructure like where you live? In the UK, you'd use most of the range driving to and from the filling station as they are few and far between even in London.
Yes, the Top Gear review says 3 hydrogen recharging stations in the UK! Somebody needs to invent a home hydrogen mini plant

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Hydrogen powered cars are a fools errand, they are wildly impractical with current fuel cell technology and the improvements in the pipeline are not going to improve the situation any time soon.

The energy ecosystem is also extremely inefficient compared to BEV’s.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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izzy wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:24 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:09 am
What's the hydrogen infrastructure like where you live? In the UK, you'd use most of the range driving to and from the filling station as they are few and far between even in London.
Yes, the Top Gear review says 3 hydrogen recharging stations in the UK! Somebody needs to invent a home hydrogen mini plant
A battery, two wires and some water. Easy. :lol:

The problem, for me, is that hydrogen adds a layer of inefficiency. You make electricity and then use it to make hydrogen, which you then use to make electricity. Two added inefficiencies there.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:39 pm
izzy wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:24 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:09 am
What's the hydrogen infrastructure like where you live? In the UK, you'd use most of the range driving to and from the filling station as they are few and far between even in London.
Yes, the Top Gear review says 3 hydrogen recharging stations in the UK! Somebody needs to invent a home hydrogen mini plant
A battery, two wires and some water. Easy. :lol:

The problem, for me, is that hydrogen adds a layer of inefficiency. You make electricity and then use it to make hydrogen, which you then use to make electricity. Two added inefficiencies there.
you could be rich! :) but yes it's all just about energy density isn't it

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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:39 pm
izzy wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:24 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:09 am
What's the hydrogen infrastructure like where you live? In the UK, you'd use most of the range driving to and from the filling station as they are few and far between even in London.
Yes, the Top Gear review says 3 hydrogen recharging stations in the UK! Somebody needs to invent a home hydrogen mini plant
A battery, two wires and some water. Easy. :lol:

The problem, for me, is that hydrogen adds a layer of inefficiency. You make electricity and then use it to make hydrogen, which you then use to make electricity. Two added inefficiencies there.
Have you seen the sun cell reactor? could be just what you need
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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gandharva
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:33 am
Hydrogen powered cars are a fools errand, they are wildly impractical with current fuel cell technology and the improvements in the pipeline are not going to improve the situation any time soon.

The energy ecosystem is also extremely inefficient compared to BEV’s.
This. The only future that hydrogen will have is as a stationary energy storage and possibly in the heavy duty range.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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If it was all about efficiency we wouldn't be driving fossil fuel vehicles anymore. An internal combustion engine isn't that efficient either. If you look from an implementation point of view it is all about cost! In that respect a private owned car has a completely different cost model than a commercial used car or truck. In the last case things as payload or availability can be more important. If a truck and personnel al are waiting during charging they aren't making any money. Also the (local) infrastructure for truck companies isn't there to charge a great amount of vehicles.
By the way in a few years time H2 cars will have the same purchase price as BEV, it will have to drop further to equal out fuel prices.

But before you talk about cost you need to go back to the origin of the problem and that is pollution reduction. A battery electric vehicle has a far larger production footprint than a fuel cell vehicle. So if you take as starting condition that the electricity for both is used renewable, than the hydrogen car emits far less CO2 than a BEV. Contrary you would need more sustainable energy. Just a few weeks ago news was released that in new experiments elektrolysis is performed with an 98% efficiency, which is 20% better than current technology. It would take a decade to fully implement it but the future is promising.

I am not against BEV (and especcialy if we make some more renewable energy) both BEV and FCEV will be far better than fossil fuels. I do want to point out that it is very easy to rule out a technology (FCEV) purely based on efficiency, it is far more complex.

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gandharva
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Brake Horse Power wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:43 pm
By the way in a few years time H2 cars will have the same purchase price as BEV, it will have to drop further to equal out fuel prices.
No. You wont' be able to buy a H2 car in the next years for around 20k €.
https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... price-5318
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:43 pm
So if you take as starting condition that the electricity for both is used renewable, than the hydrogen car emits far less CO2 than a BEV.
This is already debatable if you only look at the energy that goes into production (depends on the car type and size of battery package), and completely wrong if you look at the whole lifespan of the car. Please stop spreading misinformation.