Williams FW42

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tinvek
tinvek
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:23 pm

bosyber wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:24 pm
They are anyway soo far behind, losing a small, quantifiable extra bit to be sure they won't have to worry about cooling, might not be a bad choice.

that was my thought as well, they're literally miles behind in testing so the last thing they'd want is any possible cooling issues, just build a nice reliable car for the first couple of races whilst they get miles on the car and work out if everything is performing as predicted, if it does, then they can attempt to improve from a known baseline that matches their CFD and wind tunnel

plus, and i know it's off topic, they need to get miles on both of the drivers, especially kubica who really needs a lot of seat time

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Mr Brooksy
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:46 pm

I seriously feel like they need to get the FW40, bolt the appropriate bits on it and start from there (I know, I know it's not that simple!) But isn't Williams the only team to produce a car slower year on year since '17?

This is freaking frustrating!

And to add insult to injury Russell is saying that there's another fundamental design issue...
WilliamsF1 fan since 1989

Tzk
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:33 pm

I'd love to know which issue this car has... Russel told the media that it might take them months to solve it, so i either suspect the whole aero concept doesn't work or their design philosophy is just bad. What else takes months to fix on a car? Heck, they even said this about last years car.

I'm not even sure if the FW42 has the same fundamental issue ( :shock: ) as the FW41 or something else... They just abandoned their '18 car with issue and focused on this year, correct?

Maplesoup
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:41 pm

Tzk wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:33 pm
I'd love to know which issue this car has... Russel told the media that it might take them months to solve it, so i either suspect the whole aero concept doesn't work or their design philosophy is just bad. What else takes months to fix on a car? Heck, they even said this about last years car.

I'm not even sure if the FW42 has the same fundamental issue ( :shock: ) as the FW41 or something else... They just abandoned their '18 car with issue and focused on this year, correct?
Yea most likely chassis or philosophy related. It takes months because they have to design a new chassis build it, crash test it. Then build ay least 2 more plus all the fixtures etc to fit it if they've moved key attachment surfaces.

SmallSoldier
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:26 pm

Tzk wrote:I'd love to know which issue this car has... Russel told the media that it might take them months to solve it, so i either suspect the whole aero concept doesn't work or their design philosophy is just bad. What else takes months to fix on a car? Heck, they even said this about last years car.

I'm not even sure if the FW42 has the same fundamental issue ( :shock: ) as the FW41 or something else... They just abandoned their '18 car with issue and focused on this year, correct?
If it’s a fundamental issue, it’s more probably than not related to physical dimensions (last year car seemed to have a problem with ride height or in Mclaren’s case, front wheel distance to the bargeboard area)... Since a change to rectify it implies building a new chassis (tub), beyond the design, it also has to go through construction and crash testing / approval from FIA, which will take a few months to get completed.

Last year’s issues at Mclaren required that, by they found out about around May/June and with the time required to build a new chassis and get it through the approval process, it would have come in too late into the season and not worth the expense / resources to do it and they preferred to move onto the 2019 car... If Williams really want to recover, they will have to go through that process even if the new chassis is ready just for the last race, just so that they can ensure that they have a good design / chassis to develop towards 2020


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pipex
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:52 pm

SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:26 pm
If it’s a fundamental issue, it’s more probably than not related to physical dimensions (last year car seemed to have a problem with ride height or in Mclaren’s case, front wheel distance to the bargeboard area)... Since a change to rectify it implies building a new chassis (tub), beyond the design, it also has to go through construction and crash testing / approval from FIA, which will take a few months to get completed.
Maybe it can be something related to the suspension like geometry issues... it is very strange that they improved a lot from the FPs to qualifying. Kubica said that he was impressed by the change in the speed of the car. The car seems very sensitive to changes in conditions or setup and maybe it has a very narrow operating window. This could be also related to the loss of their chief designer last year, so all the lessons they learned with last year car were lost.
"We will have to wait and see".

SmallSoldier
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:56 pm

pipex wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:26 pm
If it’s a fundamental issue, it’s more probably than not related to physical dimensions (last year car seemed to have a problem with ride height or in Mclaren’s case, front wheel distance to the bargeboard area)... Since a change to rectify it implies building a new chassis (tub), beyond the design, it also has to go through construction and crash testing / approval from FIA, which will take a few months to get completed.
Maybe it can be something related to the suspension like geometry issues... it is very strange that they improved a lot from the FPs to qualifying. Kubica said that he was impressed by the change in the speed of the car. The car seems very sensitive to changes in conditions or setup and maybe it has a very narrow operating window. This could be also related to the loss of their chief designer last year, so all the lessons they learned with last year car were lost.
That’s a very strong possibility... It’s a very tough situation for Williams and I hope that they can find that second that even though would place them still at the end of the grid, it would at least leave them in within tenths of 18th on the grid...

Been said that... Someone has to be last, that’s the nature of the sport and has always been that way... If Williams does recover, who fills that spot?


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the EDGE
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:47 pm

SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:56 pm
pipex wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:26 pm
If it’s a fundamental issue, it’s more probably than not related to physical dimensions (last year car seemed to have a problem with ride height or in Mclaren’s case, front wheel distance to the bargeboard area)... Since a change to rectify it implies building a new chassis (tub), beyond the design, it also has to go through construction and crash testing / approval from FIA, which will take a few months to get completed.
Maybe it can be something related to the suspension like geometry issues... it is very strange that they improved a lot from the FPs to qualifying. Kubica said that he was impressed by the change in the speed of the car. The car seems very sensitive to changes in conditions or setup and maybe it has a very narrow operating window. This could be also related to the loss of their chief designer last year, so all the lessons they learned with last year car were lost.
That’s a very strong possibility... It’s a very tough situation for Williams and I hope that they can find that second that even though would place them still at the end of the grid, it would at least leave them in within tenths of 18th on the grid...

Been said that... Someone has to be last, that’s the nature of the sport and has always been that way... If Williams does recover, who fills that spot?


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There’s a difference between being last at the end of the season and being last at the end of every race

Unfortunately, as we all know, it’s the latter situation that Williams finds it self in, which is so sad.

I’d love to see F1 so competitive that any one of half the grid could end up last depending on track characteristics, or that weekends performence, or even just bad luck

SmallSoldier
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:38 pm

the EDGE wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:56 pm
pipex wrote: Maybe it can be something related to the suspension like geometry issues... it is very strange that they improved a lot from the FPs to qualifying. Kubica said that he was impressed by the change in the speed of the car. The car seems very sensitive to changes in conditions or setup and maybe it has a very narrow operating window. This could be also related to the loss of their chief designer last year, so all the lessons they learned with last year car were lost.
That’s a very strong possibility... It’s a very tough situation for Williams and I hope that they can find that second that even though would place them still at the end of the grid, it would at least leave them in within tenths of 18th on the grid...

Been said that... Someone has to be last, that’s the nature of the sport and has always been that way... If Williams does recover, who fills that spot?


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There’s a difference between being last at the end of the season and being last at the end of every race

Unfortunately, as we all know, it’s the latter situation that Williams finds it self in, which is so sad.

I’d love to see F1 so competitive that any one of half the grid could end up last depending on track characteristics, or that weekends performence, or even just bad luck
Since 2010 there has been a clear back marker or back markers:

In 2010: Lotus Cosworth, HRT Cosworth and Virgin Cosworth finished the season with 0 points.

In 2011: Lotus Renault, HRT Cosworth and Virgin Cosworth finished the season with 0 points

In 2012: Caterham Renault, Marussia Cosworth and HRT Cosworth finished with 0 points

In 2013: Marussia Cosworth and Caterham Renault finished with 0 points

In 2014: Sauber Ferrari and Caterham Renault finished with 0 points

In 2015: Marussia Ferrari finished with 0 points

In 2016: MRT Mercedes (Manor) finished with 1 point and Sauber with 2 points

In 2017: Sauber finished with 5 points (interestingly, Williams finished 5th with 83 points).

In 2018: Williams finished with 7 points

So even last season, a team with as much issues (and clearly in the back of the grid) finished with almost as many points (one less) than all back markers combined in the previous 8 seasons to that one... And the pattern follows for the last 2 decades.

Been said that, do we want all teams capable of delivering points? This season we may actually have way more teams with potential to score points with what seems the closest midfield in a long time... Let’s hope that they can recover, that are smart enough to start addressing their issues right now, speed up the development of whatever solution they need to solve this year’s “fundamental issue” and join the midfield... If they do, it will probably be the first time in the last couple decades where the whole midfield is in a position to get points.


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Big Tea
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:18 am

Tzk wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:33 pm
I'd love to know which issue this car has... Russel told the media that it might take them months to solve it, so i either suspect the whole aero concept doesn't work or their design philosophy is just bad. What else takes months to fix on a car? Heck, they even said this about last years car.

I'm not even sure if the FW42 has the same fundamental issue ( :shock: ) as the FW41 or something else... They just abandoned their '18 car with issue and focused on this year, correct?
That is the danger of 'moving on to next years car' when they still do not know what is wrong with this years car.
As the saying goes, you must learn to walk before you run. And if they were not walking properly, they will not run properly either. They can not fix problems if they do not know what causes them
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

pipex
pipex
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:47 am

Big Tea wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:18 am
That is the danger of 'moving on to next years car' when they still do not know what is wrong with this years car.
As the saying goes, you must learn to walk before you run. And if they were not walking properly, they will not run properly either. They can not fix problems if they do not know what causes them
I agree. There is no proof that last year car was fixed. If the car does not work and you have a solution, why you don't give it a go and fix it? Last year the car remained nearly the same and it was sitting constantly at the bottom of the timesheets...

In hindsight they should have started this year with a very simple "barebones" car configuration. Instead, the car had some tricky bits such as the illegal suspension element and the trick mirrors.
"We will have to wait and see".

Tzk
Tzk
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:56 am

Yep. Them not telling the public that they fixed the issue on last years car tells me that they understood it, but didn't care to fix it. And the implication that this issue remains in '19 isn't that far away then... :/

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DiogoBrand
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:49 am

McMrocks wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:03 am
that is legal?
I don't see anything that could be illegal on this picture.

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ringo
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:29 am

They may have fixed one problem and ended up with more. It's also possible these "problems" were just characteristics that existed over the years from the willaims' designs, but became problems when the competition upped the game, and analyzed to a much greater level of detail. Williams need an engineering purge, and upgrade in equipment and processes/policies.
Sad to say but the only way they will changed is if they are bought out, reshuffled, reorganized, or sent home.

Having 2 fundamental errors two years in a row screams relative incompetence of the engineering team, or engineering direction from management.

I liked how this Williams looks too, but its a lemon.
For Sure!!

Greg_OR
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Re: Williams FW42

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:40 pm

ringo wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:29 am
They may have fixed one problem and ended up with more.
That's exactly what they said in the second half of last season - that fixing one problem raises couple of others.
And last year the fundamental problem was design chain (heard of upgraded tunnel/CFD and bad data interpretation/correlation) as at the arrival to preseason tests they were confident until first run.
This led to series of tests sacrificed to get it fixed, not to improve FW41 as it was impossible/not worth. But somewhere in the middle of the season they stated these problem where recognized and solved.
ringo wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:29 am
It's also possible these "problems" were just characteristics that existed over the years from the willaims' designs, but became problems when the competition upped the game, and analyzed to a much greater level of detail.
...
I think they aquired Lowe, with his Mercedes experience, just to follow this path and leave the low drag concept of predecessors, they tried to mix some concepts of Merc and Ferrari but failed for above reasons.