McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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genarro
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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Any inside news about the concept changes that are to be implemented in MCL35 that Seidl was talking about? Perhaps a new front wing design (more to a RB or MERC philosophy)?

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godlameroso
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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Their front wing was already close to the Merc RB design.

I think as a platform the MCL34 was quite decent. So maybe new barge boards, maybe a slight increase in wheelbase, and a repackaged rear end. Those would be the obvious areas, along with the suspension.

McLaren has been working really hard on their 2020 transmission, and was a critical component in repackaging the rear. They had a Eureka moment sometime before the summer break regarding packaging.
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SmallSoldier
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:Their front wing was already close to the Merc RB design.

I think as a platform the MCL34 was quite decent. So maybe new barge boards, maybe a slight increase in wheelbase, and a repackaged rear end. Those would be the obvious areas, along with the suspension.

McLaren has been working really hard on their 2020 transmission, and was a critical component in repackaging the rear. They had a Eureka moment sometime before the summer break regarding packaging.
What do you mean about the Eureka moment? This is the first time I hear about it, any news/information you could share?

I would argue that Mclaren started the season with a front wing more similar to Merc/RBR than Ferrari, but finished the season with a complete Ferrari concept.

There were a lot of tests of new front suspension parts that didn’t stayed in the car for the rest of the season, changes on the POU that I thought were going to stay until the end of the season, but that we didn’t see again... A more finished concept of those ideas tested might be in place for 2020.


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godlameroso
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:32 pm
godlameroso wrote:Their front wing was already close to the Merc RB design.

I think as a platform the MCL34 was quite decent. So maybe new barge boards, maybe a slight increase in wheelbase, and a repackaged rear end. Those would be the obvious areas, along with the suspension.

McLaren has been working really hard on their 2020 transmission, and was a critical component in repackaging the rear. They had a Eureka moment sometime before the summer break regarding packaging.
What do you mean about the Eureka moment? This is the first time I hear about it, any news/information you could share?

I would argue that Mclaren started the season with a front wing more similar to Merc/RBR than Ferrari, but finished the season with a complete Ferrari concept.

There were a lot of tests of new front suspension parts that didn’t stayed in the car for the rest of the season, changes on the POU that I thought were going to stay until the end of the season, but that we didn’t see again... A more finished concept of those ideas tested might be in place for 2020.


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Just talk from the team, regarding what they needed to do to take another step. Nothing official, just stuff you hear.
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M840TR
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:32 pm
godlameroso wrote:Their front wing was already close to the Merc RB design.

I think as a platform the MCL34 was quite decent. So maybe new barge boards, maybe a slight increase in wheelbase, and a repackaged rear end. Those would be the obvious areas, along with the suspension.

McLaren has been working really hard on their 2020 transmission, and was a critical component in repackaging the rear. They had a Eureka moment sometime before the summer break regarding packaging.
What do you mean about the Eureka moment? This is the first time I hear about it, any news/information you could share?

I would argue that Mclaren started the season with a front wing more similar to Merc/RBR than Ferrari, but finished the season with a complete Ferrari concept.

There were a lot of tests of new front suspension parts that didn’t stayed in the car for the rest of the season, changes on the POU that I thought were going to stay until the end of the season, but that we didn’t see again... A more finished concept of those ideas tested might be in place for 2020.


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They’ve had the fully tapered FW since Spain even.

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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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M840TR wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:32 pm
godlameroso wrote:Their front wing was already close to the Merc RB design.

I think as a platform the MCL34 was quite decent. So maybe new barge boards, maybe a slight increase in wheelbase, and a repackaged rear end. Those would be the obvious areas, along with the suspension.

McLaren has been working really hard on their 2020 transmission, and was a critical component in repackaging the rear. They had a Eureka moment sometime before the summer break regarding packaging.
What do you mean about the Eureka moment? This is the first time I hear about it, any news/information you could share?

I would argue that Mclaren started the season with a front wing more similar to Merc/RBR than Ferrari, but finished the season with a complete Ferrari concept.

There were a lot of tests of new front suspension parts that didn’t stayed in the car for the rest of the season, changes on the POU that I thought were going to stay until the end of the season, but that we didn’t see again... A more finished concept of those ideas tested might be in place for 2020.


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They’ve had the fully tapered FW since Spain even.
Exactly! I wonder if they would try a different approach next year? Although... I’m sure they tried different iterations of a Merc/RBR front wing in CFD and if one never made it to the car last season (not even for testing) then probably they didn’t find any gains to justify it (or the gains didn’t justify the losses/drag).

One of the things I’ve always been curious about is the lack of an S-Duct in the Mclaren for several years now... While the top 3 seem to find a benefit in it... Was the MCL34 the only car without one last season?


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M840TR
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:21 pm
M840TR wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:32 pm


What do you mean about the Eureka moment? This is the first time I hear about it, any news/information you could share?

I would argue that Mclaren started the season with a front wing more similar to Merc/RBR than Ferrari, but finished the season with a complete Ferrari concept.

There were a lot of tests of new front suspension parts that didn’t stayed in the car for the rest of the season, changes on the POU that I thought were going to stay until the end of the season, but that we didn’t see again... A more finished concept of those ideas tested might be in place for 2020.


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They’ve had the fully tapered FW since Spain even.
Exactly! I wonder if they would try a different approach next year? Although... I’m sure they tried different iterations of a Merc/RBR front wing in CFD and if one never made it to the car last season (not even for testing) then probably they didn’t find any gains to justify it (or the gains didn’t justify the losses/drag).

One of the things I’ve always been curious about is the lack of an S-Duct in the Mclaren for several years now... While the top 3 seem to find a benefit in it... Was the MCL34 the only car without one last season?


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The problem with the conventional FW is that the outwash is too inconsistent. So, even if peak DF is high, the instability renders it practically worthless. I believe RB faced this exact issue with their current design. They had the most extreme outboard loaded FW and probably thought the tight packaging could offset it but that just made the car oversteer to no end. The tapered FW trial in Brazil supports this theory.

Even Mercedes started offloading the outboard with their shorter cord Hockenheim upgrade.

This is further nourished by the thinner tread Pirellis introduced in Spain 2018 and set to feature on next year's cars as well. Without adequate DF levels, they fail to sufficiently heat-up at the start of a hot lap and overheat with excessive sliding induced by a lack of grip from cold temperature. Truly a nightmare to operate.

I reckon tampering with the design - especially at this stage of the regulation cycle - simply isn't worth the risk.

As for the S-duct: they dedicated essentially the entire nose to the cape since Mcl-33 and a reversion to S-duct arrangement would either require an inexorable boundary layer turbulence or an otherwise massive gain which I doubt it can deliver.

SmallSoldier
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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M840TR wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:21 pm
M840TR wrote: They’ve had the fully tapered FW since Spain even.
Exactly! I wonder if they would try a different approach next year? Although... I’m sure they tried different iterations of a Merc/RBR front wing in CFD and if one never made it to the car last season (not even for testing) then probably they didn’t find any gains to justify it (or the gains didn’t justify the losses/drag).

One of the things I’ve always been curious about is the lack of an S-Duct in the Mclaren for several years now... While the top 3 seem to find a benefit in it... Was the MCL34 the only car without one last season?


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The problem with the conventional FW is that the outwash is too inconsistent. So, even if peak DF is high, the instability renders it practically worthless. I believe RB faced this exact issue with their current design. They had the most extreme outboard loaded FW and probably thought the tight packaging could offset it but that just made the car oversteer to no end. The tapered FW trial in Brazil supports this theory.

Even Mercedes started offloading the outboard with their shorter cord Hockenheim upgrade.

This is further nourished by the thinner tread Pirellis introduced in Spain 2018 and set to feature on next year's cars as well. Without adequate DF levels, they fail to sufficiently heat-up at the start of a hot lap and overheat with excessive sliding induced by a lack of grip from cold temperature. Truly a nightmare to operate.

I reckon tampering with the design - especially at this stage of the regulation cycle - simply isn't worth the risk.

As for the S-duct: they dedicated essentially the entire nose to the cape since Mcl-33 and a reversion to S-duct arrangement would either require an inexorable boundary layer turbulence or an otherwise massive gain which I doubt it can deliver.
The MCL33 got rid of the S-Duct (even before the introduction of the new nose)... Alfa Romeo utilizes a very similar nose concept and an S-Duct which makes it seem that both can work together at the same time.

Thanks for the information / comments!


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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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Ivan’s response to one of the Twitter users.

I think the car for next year looks pretty good.
https://twitter.com/ivanlda/status/1209218480739901440

Emag
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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I think there will be suspension changes for the 2020 car, and they will probably be mostly on the front. If I recall correctly, James Key designed some quite clever suspensions for Toro-Rosso and in 2017 in particular they came up with the same design as Mercedes. Hopefully he will have some of those great ideas for McLaren too.

Looking at some onboards of this year's car, you can clearly see the difficulty in rotation in slow-speed corners. In high-speed the car is beautifully balanced. I compared some onboards in Japan, and they were pretty close with the top-3 in that twisty first section. That leads me to believe that the peak downforce is almost there, however it is not as efficient compared to the top-3. Nevertheless that's a good sign because it means the 2019 chassis was producing a respectable amount of downforce for a midfield car.

Last year's car also had very weak front-end. It was quite a lazy car in turn-in. When compared to Mercedes and RedBull, which are pointy and react almost immediately to the wheel rotation, the McLaren needs to slow down a little further in order to get the same reaction. That's all in the front suspension and front-end downforce. If they strengthen those two areas while maintaining the same balance the car had in the high-speed sections, they can gain quite a big chunk of time compared to this year.

SmallSoldier
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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Emag wrote:I think there will be suspension changes for the 2020 car, and they will probably be mostly on the front. If I recall correctly, James Key designed some quite clever suspensions for Toro-Rosso and in 2017 in particular they came up with the same design as Mercedes. Hopefully he will have some of those great ideas for McLaren too.

Looking at some onboards of this year's car, you can clearly see the difficulty in rotation in slow-speed corners. In high-speed the car is beautifully balanced. I compared some onboards in Japan, and they were pretty close with the top-3 in that twisty first section. That leads me to believe that the peak downforce is almost there, however it is not as efficient compared to the top-3. Nevertheless that's a good sign because it means the 2019 chassis was producing a respectable amount of downforce for a midfield car.

Last year's car also had very weak front-end. It was quite a lazy car in turn-in. When compared to Mercedes and RedBull, which are pointy and react almost immediately to the wheel rotation, the McLaren needs to slow down a little further in order to get the same reaction. That's all in the front suspension and front-end downforce. If they strengthen those two areas while maintaining the same balance the car had in the high-speed sections, they can gain quite a big chunk of time compared to this year.
From early in the season the team admitted problems with the front end, I hope you are right and they have found a way to improve that area of the car... The slow sections of the tracks is where they suffer the most according to every race analysis before the race in the Formula 1 website... What I wonder is how deep are the changes they will need to make, if it would be a “simple” solution, I’m sure they would have implemented it in-season.


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Ground Effect
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:20 am
Emag wrote:I think there will be suspension changes for the 2020 car, and they will probably be mostly on the front. If I recall correctly, James Key designed some quite clever suspensions for Toro-Rosso and in 2017 in particular they came up with the same design as Mercedes. Hopefully he will have some of those great ideas for McLaren too.

Looking at some onboards of this year's car, you can clearly see the difficulty in rotation in slow-speed corners. In high-speed the car is beautifully balanced. I compared some onboards in Japan, and they were pretty close with the top-3 in that twisty first section. That leads me to believe that the peak downforce is almost there, however it is not as efficient compared to the top-3. Nevertheless that's a good sign because it means the 2019 chassis was producing a respectable amount of downforce for a midfield car.

Last year's car also had very weak front-end. It was quite a lazy car in turn-in. When compared to Mercedes and RedBull, which are pointy and react almost immediately to the wheel rotation, the McLaren needs to slow down a little further in order to get the same reaction. That's all in the front suspension and front-end downforce. If they strengthen those two areas while maintaining the same balance the car had in the high-speed sections, they can gain quite a big chunk of time compared to this year.
From early in the season the team admitted problems with the front end, I hope you are right and they have found a way to improve that area of the car... The slow sections of the tracks is where they suffer the most according to every race analysis before the race in the Formula 1 website... What I wonder is how deep are the changes they will need to make, if it would be a “simple” solution, I’m sure they would have implemented it in-season.


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I’ll be surprised if they don’t (re)incorporate an S-duct. But if they do, could this affect the nose and front wing concepts?
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Emag
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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They don't have a very "steep" nose design. I don't think it's necessary for them to have an S-Duct if they stick with that for next year. The S-Duct helps to re-attach the flow after it hits that first bit of the car at the nose. If you are not disrupting the air that much in the front, there is no need to run an S-Duct.

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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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The main problem with the McLaren is at what speed it generates downforce. At speed it's there, at lower speeds it isn't, or isn't as consistent as the top 3. A big part of this is the rear end of the car, it limits how much low speed downforce they can produce.

An F1 car only needs to travel ~70kph for it to generate aero load. Which means almost every corner is dependent on aero load.

For simplicity's sake let's say between 80-300kph there is a linear increase in load for the McLaren.

80kph = 1
300kph = 10

Mercedes on the other hand

80kph = 1.4
300kph = 10.4

So peak load may only be slightly higher for Mercedes at speed(~7%), but at low speeds the difference is massive(~30%), which accounts for the low speed advantage.

These aren't actual numbers, I'm using them as an analogy to explain a relationship.
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Re: McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:43 pm
The main problem with the McLaren is at what speed it generates downforce. At speed it's there, at lower speeds it isn't, or isn't as consistent as the top 3. A big part of this is the rear end of the car, it limits how much low speed downforce they can produce.

An F1 car only needs to travel ~70kph for it to generate aero load. Which means almost every corner is dependent on aero load.

For simplicity's sake let's say between 80-300kph there is a linear increase in load for the McLaren.

80kph = 1
300kph = 10

Mercedes on the other hand

80kph = 1.4
300kph = 10.4

So peak load may only be slightly higher for Mercedes at speed(~7%), but at low speeds the difference is massive(~30%), which accounts for the low speed advantage.

These aren't actual numbers, I'm using them as an analogy to explain a relationship.
Actually, downforce varies directly with the square of speed, not linearly. So, if a car has a downforce advantage at low speeds, it will only get magnified at higher speeds.

I suspect McLaren’s weakness in slow speed corners stems from a lack of mechanical grip, rather than downforce. Downforce is more dominant compared to mechanical grip at higher speeds. Hence, their decent performance in high speed corners.

The front end downforce becomes important in long corners like in China. I think it only plays a minor role in slow speed corners, with mechanical grip being the dominant factor.

Tweaks to their suspension may be the solution. But, we can only guess as to how effective it would be.