Renault F1 R.S. 20

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
-4
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:52 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

are they plan to bring new engine i.e.2022 engine and power unit in 2021 for reliability check?

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
-4
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:52 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

Ferrari and RB bringing new engine and power unit why Renault is not bringing new engine in 2021?

User avatar
godlameroso
462
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:08 am
Ferrari and RB bringing new engine and power unit why Renault is not bringing new engine in 2021?
They're not?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
-4
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:52 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:40 pm
selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:08 am
Ferrari and RB bringing new engine and power unit why Renault is not bringing new engine in 2021?
They're not?
Ferrari bringing new power unit and for Honda they are updating their engine. This what I heard from gptoday and formula1.com

FDD
FDD
8
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

" At the moment we do not enjoy the best engine ," said Mattia Binotto "but l ' next year we will be able to rely on a completely new . The regulation allows us to do this . "
“As Ferrari we have invested heavily in the development of the engine in a 2021 and 2022 key . The engine has been running on the bench for some time and the data we receive, in terms of performance and reliability, are very positive ”

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
489
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

If they can manage to be on the right side of the grey area they took advantage of last time, we might see Ferrari fighting near the front again. Fingers crossed!
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

tangodjango
tangodjango
47
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:51 pm
If they can manage to be on the right side of the grey area they took advantage of last time, we might see Ferrari fighting near the front again. Fingers crossed!
Isn't the key Ferrari engine guy still Wolff Zimmerman who used to work at HPP? If his team failed to produce good baseline performance without the grey areas from 18-19 can they really turn it around in this year of all years? In any case given that we know in retrospect Ferrari couldn't really keep up with Mercedes without resorting to heavy investment in 'grey areas' for 2 years isn't it terribly optimistic to think they will catch up with Honda and Renault in 1 year let alone Mercedes no matter how much money they pump in? Maybe those more knowledgeable than me can shed light on this.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
489
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:02 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:51 pm
If they can manage to be on the right side of the grey area they took advantage of last time, we might see Ferrari fighting near the front again. Fingers crossed!
Isn't the key Ferrari engine guy still Wolff Zimmerman who used to work at HPP? If his team failed to produce good baseline performance without the grey areas from 18-19 can they really turn it around in this year of all years? In any case given that we know in retrospect Ferrari couldn't really keep up with Mercedes without resorting to heavy investment in 'grey areas' for 2 years isn't it terribly optimistic to think they will catch up with Honda and Renault in 1 year let alone Mercedes no matter how much money they pump in? Maybe those more knowledgeable than me can shed light on this.
Hmph. I think they were in the gray from as far back as 2015. They jumped so far up power in just one year.

The Renault 2022 engine is also an interesting one. They will keeps cards close because it would be too much changes to the 2021 chassis to fit it.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

FDD
FDD
8
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:02 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:51 pm
If they can manage to be on the right side of the grey area they took advantage of last time, we might see Ferrari fighting near the front again. Fingers crossed!
Isn't the key Ferrari engine guy still Wolff Zimmerman who used to work at HPP? If his team failed to produce good baseline performance without the grey areas from 18-19 can they really turn it around in this year of all years? In any case given that we know in retrospect Ferrari couldn't really keep up with Mercedes without resorting to heavy investment in 'grey areas' for 2 years isn't it terribly optimistic to think they will catch up with Honda and Renault in 1 year let alone Mercedes no matter how much money they pump in? Maybe those more knowledgeable than me can shed light on this.
Merc was also in grey area with oil burning

tangodjango
tangodjango
47
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

FDD wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:43 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:02 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:51 pm
If they can manage to be on the right side of the grey area they took advantage of last time, we might see Ferrari fighting near the front again. Fingers crossed!
Isn't the key Ferrari engine guy still Wolff Zimmerman who used to work at HPP? If his team failed to produce good baseline performance without the grey areas from 18-19 can they really turn it around in this year of all years? In any case given that we know in retrospect Ferrari couldn't really keep up with Mercedes without resorting to heavy investment in 'grey areas' for 2 years isn't it terribly optimistic to think they will catch up with Honda and Renault in 1 year let alone Mercedes no matter how much money they pump in? Maybe those more knowledgeable than me can shed light on this.
Merc was also in grey area with oil burning
Oil burning was stopped years back.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

FDD
FDD
8
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:40 pm
FDD wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:43 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:02 pm

Isn't the key Ferrari engine guy still Wolff Zimmerman who used to work at HPP? If his team failed to produce good baseline performance without the grey areas from 18-19 can they really turn it around in this year of all years? In any case given that we know in retrospect Ferrari couldn't really keep up with Mercedes without resorting to heavy investment in 'grey areas' for 2 years isn't it terribly optimistic to think they will catch up with Honda and Renault in 1 year let alone Mercedes no matter how much money they pump in? Maybe those more knowledgeable than me can shed light on this.
Merc was also in grey area with oil burning
Oil burning was stopped years back.
Absolutely true that oil burning was stopped, but however they have been in grey zone same as Ferrari and they benefit from that for sure

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
-4
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:52 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

FDD wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:40 pm
FDD wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:43 pm

Merc was also in grey area with oil burning
Oil burning was stopped years back.
Absolutely true that oil burning was stopped, but however they have been in grey zone same as Ferrari and they benefit from that for sure
+Honda as well

User avatar
godlameroso
462
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

FDD wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:40 pm
FDD wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:43 pm

Merc was also in grey area with oil burning
Oil burning was stopped years back.
Absolutely true that oil burning was stopped, but however they have been in grey zone same as Ferrari and they benefit from that for sure
You can't stop oil burning, it's a feature of all piston engines. There's always some oil on the cylinder walls, the rings shear this oil, and aerates it as the piston travels up and down, and is dispersed by the quench zone, the area where the cylinder head meets the cylinder itself. This is defined by the head sealing and O-ring/head gasket, and general shape of the combustion chamber. The quench area is a big source of detonation because of the tendency for fuel and oil to mix in the quench area of the combustion chamber.

There's no way to stop oil burning due to the nature of piston engines, some oil will also enter the valve guides regardless of what you do.

Oil burns much slower than gasoline does, so when you burn oil, you increase the chances of low speed pre-ignition, which leads to the worst form of detonation, uncontrolled detonation.

You have choices, use oil that burns faster to avoid LSPI, which will naturally affect oil consumption, or additives in the oil that make oil less likely to combust, thus avoiding LSPI, or you change the rings, because the rings are what control piston sealing and oil scraping on the cylinder walls. You make stronger rings that scrape the cylinder walls, in turn you need stronger cylinder walls to cope with the added ring friction from being forced by the regulations to be tighter with oil control.

Then you invest money because you learn the way the rings sit in the piston has huge influence on detonation, and your hard AF piston rings don't seal well with your expensive AF piston treatment which while making the ring lands hard AF has poor sealing due to the porosity of the material. So you invest tons of money in getting the ring grooves to sit perfectly flat because it helps ring sealing massively. But now you have more power(more cylinder pressure pushing the rings into the cylinder wall) and more wear on the piston skirt(more thrust forces), so you have to make even stronger pistons, and cylinder walls, because you're not allowed to burn as much oil as before.

How do you remedy this? Better lubricants, of course, mechanically how do you fix this? Oh you know just change block architecture to increase rod ratio, which means new crank, new rods, new cylinder head, new timing gears. Typically increasing rod ratio lowers thrust forces, of course neither extreme is good for various reasons, but finding the sweet spot takes a fair bit of trial and error even with current simulations.

All this and about 5 months have gone by and you've spent over $100 million on test engines, new tooling, man hours, logistics, etc. Meanwhile the same bloody engines are running on track for the whole season.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

FDD
FDD
8
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:12 pm
FDD wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:40 pm

Oil burning was stopped years back.
Absolutely true that oil burning was stopped, but however they have been in grey zone same as Ferrari and they benefit from that for sure
You can't stop oil burning, it's a feature of all piston engines. There's always some oil on the cylinder walls, the rings shear this oil, and aerates it as the piston travels up and down, and is dispersed by the quench zone, the area where the cylinder head meets the cylinder itself. This is defined by the head sealing and O-ring/head gasket, and general shape of the combustion chamber. The quench area is a big source of detonation because of the tendency for fuel and oil to mix in the quench area of the combustion chamber.

There's no way to stop oil burning due to the nature of piston engines, some oil will also enter the valve guides regardless of what you do.

Oil burns much slower than gasoline does, so when you burn oil, you increase the chances of low speed pre-ignition, which leads to the worst form of detonation, uncontrolled detonation.

You have choices, use oil that burns faster to avoid LSPI, which will naturally affect oil consumption, or additives in the oil that make oil less likely to combust, thus avoiding LSPI, or you change the rings, because the rings are what control piston sealing and oil scraping on the cylinder walls. You make stronger rings that scrape the cylinder walls, in turn you need stronger cylinder walls to cope with the added ring friction from being forced by the regulations to be tighter with oil control.

Then you invest money because you learn the way the rings sit in the piston has huge influence on detonation, and your hard AF piston rings don't seal well with your expensive AF piston treatment which while making the ring lands hard AF has poor sealing due to the porosity of the material. So you invest tons of money in getting the ring grooves to sit perfectly flat because it helps ring sealing massively. But now you have more power(more cylinder pressure pushing the rings into the cylinder wall) and more wear on the piston skirt(more thrust forces), so you have to make even stronger pistons, and cylinder walls, because you're not allowed to burn as much oil as before.

How do you remedy this? Better lubricants, of course, mechanically how do you fix this? Oh you know just change block architecture to increase rod ratio, which means new crank, new rods, new cylinder head, new timing gears. Typically increasing rod ratio lowers thrust forces, of course neither extreme is good for various reasons, but finding the sweet spot takes a fair bit of trial and error even with current simulations.

All this and about 5 months have gone by and you've spent over $100 million on test engines, new tooling, man hours, logistics, etc. Meanwhile the same bloody engines are running on track for the whole season.
https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/oil-b ... %20a%20lap.

User avatar
godlameroso
462
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Renault F1 R.S. 20

Post

FDD wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:49 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:12 pm
FDD wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:40 pm

Absolutely true that oil burning was stopped, but however they have been in grey zone same as Ferrari and they benefit from that for sure
You can't stop oil burning, it's a feature of all piston engines. There's always some oil on the cylinder walls, the rings shear this oil, and aerates it as the piston travels up and down, and is dispersed by the quench zone, the area where the cylinder head meets the cylinder itself. This is defined by the head sealing and O-ring/head gasket, and general shape of the combustion chamber. The quench area is a big source of detonation because of the tendency for fuel and oil to mix in the quench area of the combustion chamber.

There's no way to stop oil burning due to the nature of piston engines, some oil will also enter the valve guides regardless of what you do.

Oil burns much slower than gasoline does, so when you burn oil, you increase the chances of low speed pre-ignition, which leads to the worst form of detonation, uncontrolled detonation.

You have choices, use oil that burns faster to avoid LSPI, which will naturally affect oil consumption, or additives in the oil that make oil less likely to combust, thus avoiding LSPI, or you change the rings, because the rings are what control piston sealing and oil scraping on the cylinder walls. You make stronger rings that scrape the cylinder walls, in turn you need stronger cylinder walls to cope with the added ring friction from being forced by the regulations to be tighter with oil control.

Then you invest money because you learn the way the rings sit in the piston has huge influence on detonation, and your hard AF piston rings don't seal well with your expensive AF piston treatment which while making the ring lands hard AF has poor sealing due to the porosity of the material. So you invest tons of money in getting the ring grooves to sit perfectly flat because it helps ring sealing massively. But now you have more power(more cylinder pressure pushing the rings into the cylinder wall) and more wear on the piston skirt(more thrust forces), so you have to make even stronger pistons, and cylinder walls, because you're not allowed to burn as much oil as before.

How do you remedy this? Better lubricants, of course, mechanically how do you fix this? Oh you know just change block architecture to increase rod ratio, which means new crank, new rods, new cylinder head, new timing gears. Typically increasing rod ratio lowers thrust forces, of course neither extreme is good for various reasons, but finding the sweet spot takes a fair bit of trial and error even with current simulations.

All this and about 5 months have gone by and you've spent over $100 million on test engines, new tooling, man hours, logistics, etc. Meanwhile the same bloody engines are running on track for the whole season.
https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/oil-b ... %20a%20lap.
Oil burning still happens. They allow up to a liter of oil per race distance.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee