Racing Point RP20

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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izzy
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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Raleigh wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:51 am
Bodywork and aero are not allowed to be shared between teams, even in the form of technical diagrams that the other team then builds independently. However, as can be seen the bodywork and aero of the RP20 is almost cloned from the W10, which leads me to believe Mercedes have found a legal way to let Racing Point copy their aero as closely as possible.
they just hire some Mercedes people. Simple! Same commuter area, and in fact the same place of work too O:)

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Morteza
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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Image
Via AMuS
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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Reading between the lines, Andy Green seem to suggest that aero parts are not Mercedes parts but their best attempt at cloning Mercedes aerodynamics.... :?

Does anyone know the list of customer parts allowed?
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

Zynerji
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:41 am
Reading between the lines, Andy Green seem to suggest that aero parts are not Mercedes parts but their best attempt at cloning Mercedes aerodynamics.... :?

Does anyone know the list of customer parts allowed?
They would need to 3d scan a W10 to be that precise, and the true proof of that is the fact that the RP20 is working so well. If they were just slightly off, it would be a cluster f#$%.

I could just imagine the phone call:

RP: yes, Toto, we want the 2019 suspension parts.

TOTO: actually the 2020 parts are 4% "better".

RP: no no, we want the old ones...

TOTO: that makes absolutely no sense!

RP: we need the 2019 gearbox as well :?

TOTO: ok, but I don't get why...

RP: wait until Barcelona, you will understand then.

Zynerji
Zynerji
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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Raleigh wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:51 am
Okay, to clear up some points since not everyone seems to fully understand what is going on between the RP20 and Mercedes...

Racing Point are buying named components directly from Mercedes as is allowed under the rules. This means the suspension, brake ducts and gearbox are supplied by Mercedes from the same parts used on the W10. Not similar, identical.

You can be sure, every single component Lawrence Stroll is allowed to buy directly from Mercedes he is doing so.

Bodywork and aero are not allowed to be shared between teams, even in the form of technical diagrams that the other team then builds independently. However, as can be seen the bodywork and aero of the RP20 is almost cloned from the W10, which leads me to believe Mercedes have found a legal way to let Racing Point copy their aero as closely as possible.

For example, very high resolution projected computer images of the car (think press release images but much more detailed) would allow Racing Point to work out exact dimensions and position of each piece of bodywork, and yet these images wouldn't count as illegally sharing data because it's just a picture of the car.
What about RP dumpster diving for last year's layup molds? :lol:

Maybe a private auction of "old" stuff for charity?

Crabbia
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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Raleigh wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:51 am

Bodywork and aero are not allowed to be shared between teams, even in the form of technical diagrams that the other team then builds independently. However, as can be seen the bodywork and aero of the RP20 is almost cloned from the W10, which leads me to believe Mercedes have found a legal way to let Racing Point copy their aero as closely as possible.

For example, very high resolution projected computer images of the car (think press release images but much more detailed) would allow Racing Point to work out exact dimensions and position of each piece of bodywork, and yet these images wouldn't count as illegally sharing data because it's just a picture of the car.
i feel like thats certainly possible but I was also thinking, with AI, photogrametry algorithms and how prolific multi lens cameras are today i dont think its impossible that they built a car from pictures. A couple years ago i would have said its probably not worth the effort as they would have to design camera systems themselves. But now Multi lens setups and photography software is commonplace. And would it be such a stretch that Merc would have allowed someone from racing point a day to take photos of the car. Add to that you would have had many known details from shared parts like the suspension, gear box and brakes. All that could be used to "tune" the data from your hi res photos

I stand under correction but I'm sure. for bodywork at least, an experienced composites engineer could look at a series of pictures of a part and reverse engineer the fabrication process. I would think something like that would be known know how in the race car engineering space. If i'm wrong hopefully someone with more knowledge will correct or confirm my assertions.
A wise man once told me you cant polish a turd...

JPBD1990
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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Not to be a buzz kill, but I think Andy Green’s explanation relies on the naivety of the average observer. The car, minus the sidepod openings which are slightly smaller and likely associated to the new engine’s reduced cooling requirements, is a clone. It’s simply not possible to do this from looking at images. Andy said this is drawn from images of the W10. Sure, drawing is 1 thing but then producing them to the same spec is quite another.

The Haas is the comparison people keep drawing. The Haas has been heavily inspired by the Ferrari, yes, but it’s never been a clone. And this is not because they didn’t want a clone (I’m sure) but because it’s simply not possible.

Not only are you copying someone’s design, it’s being interpreted through the eyes and minds of different people/engineers. Those people would naturally think differently, have different understandings of concepts, etc.

Further to that even - would you, as a designer, be perfectly content and at peace within yourself tracing another designers drawing and simply recreating it? Would you not have some desire to design or create something your own? I mean, that’s what designers and engineers DO.

The whole thing is... ‘not in the spirit of the rules’, as some others have said, to say the ABSOLUTE least.

bucker
bucker
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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Morteza wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:31 pm
Image
Via AMuS
Image

These guys are brilliant. Engineers did an amazing copy.

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siskue2005
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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Image


Image

The sidepods are bit bulkier and not as tightly packed as the W10, you can clearly see that from the picture (the W part of the BWT).... i guess they will bring that tighter packages next week?

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nzjrs
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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JPBD1990 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:39 am
Not to be a buzz kill, but I think Andy Green’s explanation relies on the naivety of the average observer. The car, minus the sidepod openings which are slightly smaller and likely associated to the new engine’s reduced cooling requirements, is a clone. It’s simply not possible to do this from looking at images.
In my day job I do quite a lot of computer vision, one aspect of that is photogrammetry. What he suggests is very possible.
Crabbia wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:29 am
i feel like thats certainly possible but I was also thinking, with AI, photogrametry algorithms and how prolific multi lens cameras are today
Agree. Interestingly, AI is not necessary here. Photogrammetry is well known old-tech. It's not necessarily better with multi-lens. I'd do the standard monocular (single lens per image) approach. The error is better bounded IME, practically, than multi-image multi-lens (or if you were thinking single-image multi-lens i.e. multicamera 3D).

For those interested, this is 'multiple view geometry' in computer vision speak, the three terms of 'photogrammetry', 'structure from motion' and 'SLAM (simultaneous localisation and mapping)' rely on similar mathematical formulations.
Zynerji wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:03 am
They would need to 3d scan a W10 to be that precise, and the true proof of that is the fact that the RP20 is working so well. If they were just slightly off, it would be a cluster f#$%.
Modern photogrammetry is pretty good. You are restricted by needing photos of the part, but you'd be surprised on the resolution achievable. <5mm is not a challenge with sufficient images, calibration and texture.

JPBD1990
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:20 pm
JPBD1990 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:39 am
Not to be a buzz kill, but I think Andy Green’s explanation relies on the naivety of the average observer. The car, minus the sidepod openings which are slightly smaller and likely associated to the new engine’s reduced cooling requirements, is a clone. It’s simply not possible to do this from looking at images.
In my day job I do quite a lot of computer vision, one aspect of that is photogrammetry. What he suggests is very possible.
What about simply having integrity? This might be good business but... that’s literally it. Equivalent of being a snake oil salesman.

Sure, you can sell crystals charged by the moon for $20 a rock and it’ll make you a buck... but should you?

Sure, you can literally blatantly rip off (if not be given) other designers and engineers hard work, instead of doing your own, and you can go racing a bit cheaper. But... would you want to?

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nzjrs
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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JPBD1990 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:47 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:20 pm
In my day job I do quite a lot of computer vision, one aspect of that is photogrammetry. What he suggests is very possible.
What about simply having integrity? This might be good business but... that’s literally it. Equivalent of being a snake oil salesman.
Deleted

(my original post on photogrammetry technology was removed as off topic)
Last edited by nzjrs on Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Godius
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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A few more comparison pictures from AMuS:

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jjn9128
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:41 am
Reading between the lines, Andy Green seem to suggest that aero parts are not Mercedes parts but their best attempt at cloning Mercedes aerodynamics.... :?

Does anyone know the list of customer parts allowed?
Appendix 6 in the sporting regs. Everything non-listed it is possible to purchase.
LISTED PARTS
Survival cell as defined in Article 1.14 of the F1 Technical Regulations (with the exception of a closing panel for the purpose of accessing the ES)

Front impact structure as regulated by Article 15.5.6 of the F1 Technical Regulations

Roll structures as regulated by Article 15.2 of the F1 Technical Regulations

Bodywork as defined in Article 1.4 of the F1 Technical Regulations and regulated by Article 3 of the F1 Technical Regulations with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries

Air ducts as regulated by Articles 11.4, 11.5 and 11.6 of the F1 Technical Regulations
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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ringo
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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the cars arent exactly the same. they look very close but they arent.

the RP car is a copy yes but not an exact copy.

enough technology is out there to copy the mercedes car when its in the pitlane or on display somewhere or even in parc ferme.
3 scanners exist that can copy the car to a milimeter in about 3 minutes. Its not dificult really.
what i think happened is that merceses let their W10 be scanned by racing point.
this may have happened during post seasen testing.
For Sure!!