DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:53 am
bluechris wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:05 pm
apexcontrol wrote:it isnt legal. at 300km the aero change is huge.

https://drivetribe.com/p/aerodynamics-o ... rnTlzA-XCQ
That is what i am saying from the beginning and its what Newey pointed but then he kept quiet.
I believe RedBul will play the aero card when they see how they compare to Mercedes, then but bye DAS.
Even though Mercedes i think don't need DAS to be dominant this year again.
I agree.

IMO if the FIA can ban Renault's TMD using Aero as a rationale (and a flimsy one at that), they can sure as hell declare DAS to be "a movable aero device" as it very clearly changes the cars drag properties buy straightening the front wheels, in-line with the air-flow, when the car is on a straight.
Renault's TMD was entirely an aero device. It had one function - to control the car's position relative to the road and give consistent aero performance. That's what it was for and all it did. Nothing else.

Until you can demonstrate that DAS is purely an aero device in the same way, then your argument is void. It's more likely that the device is intended to allow the front tyres to be cooled by reducing scrub on long straights. We know that running toe on a straight at 300km/h heats/wears the tyres. Removing that toe will cool/improve tyre wear. How much drag reduction will that toe removal give? Is it more or less beneficial than the tyre cooling/wear improvements?
Last edited by Just_a_fan on Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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djos
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am
djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:53 am
bluechris wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:05 pm
That is what i am saying from the beginning and its what Newey pointed but then he kept quiet.
I believe RedBul will play the aero card when they see how they compare to Mercedes, then but bye DAS.
Even though Mercedes i think don't need DAS to be dominant this year again.
I agree.

IMO if the FIA can ban Renault's TMD using Aero as a rationale (and a flimsy one at that), they can sure as hell declare DAS to be "a movable aero device" as it very clearly changes the cars drag properties buy straightening the front wheels, in-line with the air-flow, when the car is on a straight.
Renault's TMD was entirely an aero device. It had one function - to control the car's position relative to the road and give consistent aero performance. That's what it was for and all it did. Nothing else.

Until you can demonstrate that DAS is purely an aero device in the same way, then you're argument is void. It's more likely that the device is intended to allow the front tyres to be cooled by reducing scrub on long straights. We know that running toe on a straight at 300km/h heats/wears the tyres. Removing that toe will cool/improve tyre wear. How much drag reduction will that toe removal give? Is it more or less beneficial than the tyre cooling/wear improvements?
That logic applies to DAS also - it controls the Aero profile of front tires and improves Aero performance (reduced drag). The TMD was designed to maintain a consistent tire contact patch with the road, the Aero benefit was secondary.

Sure it can be argued DAS is primarily designed to improve tire wear, but the Aero benefit appears to be significant regardless.
Last edited by djos on Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:10 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am
djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:53 am


I agree.

IMO if the FIA can ban Renault's TMD using Aero as a rationale (and a flimsy one at that), they can sure as hell declare DAS to be "a movable aero device" as it very clearly changes the cars drag properties buy straightening the front wheels, in-line with the air-flow, when the car is on a straight.
Renault's TMD was entirely an aero device. It had one function - to control the car's position relative to the road and give consistent aero performance. That's what it was for and all it did. Nothing else.

Until you can demonstrate that DAS is purely an aero device in the same way, then you're argument is void. It's more likely that the device is intended to allow the front tyres to be cooled by reducing scrub on long straights. We know that running toe on a straight at 300km/h heats/wears the tyres. Removing that toe will cool/improve tyre wear. How much drag reduction will that toe removal give? Is it more or less beneficial than the tyre cooling/wear improvements?
That logic applies to DAS also - it controls the Aero profile of front tires and improves Aero performance (reduced drag).

Sure it can be argued it is primarily designed to improve tire wear, but the Aero benefit appears to be significant regardless.
That's for the other teams to demonstrate. I'd bet that Mercedes have data that shows otherwise.
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djos
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:11 am
That's for the other teams to demonstrate. I'd bet that Mercedes have data that shows otherwise.
Think about it logically, demonstrating that would not be difficult - DAS reduces the frontal area of the tire when on the straights. Manging front tire wake is one of the biggest challenges of an open-wheel car designer so you could also argue that DAS makes managing the front tire wake easier downstream as the dirty-air tire wake would be reduced.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:16 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:11 am
That's for the other teams to demonstrate. I'd bet that Mercedes have data that shows otherwise.
Think about it logically, demonstrating that would not be difficult - DAS reduces the frontal area of the tire when on the straights. Manging front tire wake is one of the biggest challenges of an open-wheel car designer so you could also argue that DAS makes managing the front tire wake easier downstream as the dirty-air tire wake would be reduced.
Sure, easy to say. But to demonstrate that it's a bigger benefit than some other benefit is much trickier.

Maybe Mercedes have CFD plots that show that the wake is less favourable when DAS is employed. What then? After all, if you think about it, tyre wake management isn't a real issue on a straight - it's an issue in corners because downfroce doesn't matter on straights - indeed it's a bad thing to some degree.

So Mercedes shows that the drag/downforce is much the same overall but tyre performance is improved. Then what? Heck, they might even show that overall drag is worse with DAS engaged, Then what? The team may have determined that this is favourable if it allows better tyre performance elsewhere. If so, then what?

The steering aspect isn't illegal. The others (RedBull, in reality) have to show that the system gives an aero benefit on the Mercedes car. What if it gives an aero benefit on the RBR but not on the Mercedes? Then RBR would have shown that they can't run it themselves. Now that would be tricky.
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djos
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:23 am
djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:16 am
Think about it logically, demonstrating that would not be difficult - DAS reduces the frontal area of the tire when on the straights. Manging front tire wake is one of the biggest challenges of an open-wheel car designer so you could also argue that DAS makes managing the front tire wake easier downstream as the dirty-air tire wake would be reduced.
Sure, easy to say. But to demonstrate that it's a bigger benefit than some other benefit is much trickier.

Maybe Mercedes have CFD plots that show that the wake is less favourable when DAS is employed. What then? After all, if you think about it, tyre wake management isn't a real issue on a straight - it's an issue in corners because downfroce doesn't matter on straights - indeed it's a bad thing to some degree.

So Mercedes shows that the drag/downforce is much the same overall but tyre performance is improved. Then what? Heck, they might even show that overall drag is worse with DAS engaged, Then what? The team may have determined that this is favourable if it allows better tyre performance elsewhere. If so, then what?

The steering aspect isn't illegal. The others (RedBull, in reality) have to show that the system gives an aero benefit on the Mercedes car. What if it gives an aero benefit on the RBR but not on the Mercedes? Then RBR would have shown that they can't run it themselves. Now that would be tricky.
You make very valid points - one thing in the opposing team's favour would be the argument that every team looks for every small advantage they can, and DAS is just another example of that.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:30 am


You make very valid points - one thing in the opposing team's favour would be the argument that every team looks for every small advantage they can, and DAS is just another example of that.
Agreed. But when protesting another team's designs, one has to show where the advantage is in order to show it is illegal. If RBR can prove with reasonable certainty that DAS is an aero device, then they can get it banned.

The "If" is the key...
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djos
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:39 am
djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:30 am


You make very valid points - one thing in the opposing team's favour would be the argument that every team looks for every small advantage they can, and DAS is just another example of that.
Agreed. But when protesting another team's designs, one has to show where the advantage is in order to show it is illegal. If RBR can prove with reasonable certainty that DAS is an aero device, then they can get it banned.

The "If" is the key...
Very true.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

bonjon1979
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am
djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:53 am
bluechris wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:05 pm
That is what i am saying from the beginning and its what Newey pointed but then he kept quiet.
I believe RedBul will play the aero card when they see how they compare to Mercedes, then but bye DAS.
Even though Mercedes i think don't need DAS to be dominant this year again.
I agree.

IMO if the FIA can ban Renault's TMD using Aero as a rationale (and a flimsy one at that), they can sure as hell declare DAS to be "a movable aero device" as it very clearly changes the cars drag properties buy straightening the front wheels, in-line with the air-flow, when the car is on a straight.
Renault's TMD was entirely an aero device. It had one function - to control the car's position relative to the road and give consistent aero performance. That's what it was for and all it did. Nothing else.

Until you can demonstrate that DAS is purely an aero device in the same way, then your argument is void. It's more likely that the device is intended to allow the front tyres to be cooled by reducing scrub on long straights. We know that running toe on a straight at 300km/h heats/wears the tyres. Removing that toe will cool/improve tyre wear. How much drag reduction will that toe removal give? Is it more or less beneficial than the tyre cooling/wear improvements?
Adjusting the toe aids steering. Improving turn in and improving stability on straights

There is nothing in any definition that says steering is only determined by turning a wheel left or right. It’s is simply that it is a means of changing a vehicles direction.

For an example, a plane has a yoke that moves in two axis to steer the plane.

Steering the wheel left and right effects the aerodynamics of the car so does that mean that should be illegal?

bonjon1979
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:39 am
djos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:30 am


You make very valid points - one thing in the opposing team's favour would be the argument that every team looks for every small advantage they can, and DAS is just another example of that.
Agreed. But when protesting another team's designs, one has to show where the advantage is in order to show it is illegal. If RBR can prove with reasonable certainty that DAS is an aero device, then they can get it banned.

The "If" is the key...
Exactly, less than a degree of change is not going to have much of an effect, certainly not as much as the effect on turning

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henry
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am
Renault's TMD was entirely an aero device. It had one function - to control the car's position relative to the road and give consistent aero performance. That's what it was for and all it did. Nothing else.
My recollection is different. The TMDs were a first attempt to control the undamped oscillations of F1s chubby tyres. They worked well and Renault gained significant advantage in traction.

The reason the FIA went after them was because of the M part. They didn't want cars with lots of wobbly masses on them. They reasoned that teams would also try to tackle the lateral oscillations in the same way leading to lots of heavy componentry that may have caused safety concerns.

There was an aero benefit but it wasn’t the reason Renault went with them, but it gave a hook to ban them.

Soon after the undamped tyre vertical oscillations were tamed by the adoption of Inerters, McLaren’s J-damper.

Sorry for the digression but the cases of TMDs and DAS are not, in my mind, comparable.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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henry wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:13 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am
Renault's TMD was entirely an aero device. It had one function - to control the car's position relative to the road and give consistent aero performance. That's what it was for and all it did. Nothing else.
My recollection is different. The TMDs were a first attempt to control the undamped oscillations of F1s chubby tyres. They worked well and Renault gained significant advantage in traction.
It was an attempt to keep the front wing a consistent height from the track's surface by, as you say, dealing with the tyre's undamped nature.
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izzy
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Moveable aero is only banned if it's bodywork on the wholly sprung part of the car. Adrian will be talking about the tiny change in ride height not the wheels

But unluckily for him the steering is allowed to change the ride height by up to 5 mm :) so i hope they tell us what he tries, it must be creative

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henry
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:23 am
henry wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:13 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am
Renault's TMD was entirely an aero device. It had one function - to control the car's position relative to the road and give consistent aero performance. That's what it was for and all it did. Nothing else.
My recollection is different. The TMDs were a first attempt to control the undamped oscillations of F1s chubby tyres. They worked well and Renault gained significant advantage in traction.
It was an attempt to keep the front wing a consistent height from the track's surface by, as you say, dealing with the tyre's undamped nature.
The first indication of its use was their traction off the line. It was a mechanical solution. The aero was secondary.

Here’s an article about its origins. https://mooregoodink.com/how-renault-f ... ss-damper/

Here’s a relevant quote
In the preserve of Formula 1, this was significant and due entirely to the improved mechanical grip, as the variation in tire-contact-patch force was reduced.
A quick search on this topic in Bing incidentally shows that you have held your opinion for a very long time, at least 2010. So I don’t expect to change your mind.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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gandharva
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Wir erfahren aus dem Mercedes-Umfeld, dass man das "DAS"-System wegen des drohenden Red Bull-Protests vermutlich doch nicht einsetzen wird. Obwohl ein Einsatz an Freitag unverfänglich wäre und man damit ohne Angst auf Disqualifikation endlich Klarheit hätte. Es sind aber zu viele Kontroversen im Umlauf, dass man den vielen Krisenherden nicht noch einen weiteren hinzufügen will.
We learn from the Mercedes environment that the "DAS" system will probably not be used after all because of the threatening Red Bull protest. Although a deployment on Friday would be harmless and one would finally have clarity without fear of disqualification. However, there are too many controversies in circulation that one does not want to add another to the many trouble spots.
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