DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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izzy
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:33 pm
What I don't understand is any moveable aero is forbidden.

With toe-in your wheels have a larger frontal aero surface then with toe neutral. So by moving the wheels to toe-neutral you are having less of an aero impact and as such it is moveable aero. They way how you achieve it does not really matter anymore. The fact that you have a way of controlling it to your suit is enough to call this moveable.

Then, to make matters worse, there is the way you control it, yes you use the steering wheel, but not to steer, just to actively control the aero frontal impact of the front wheels. When pulling the steer toward you and when pushing it away you are not steering at all, you are moving in a straight line. The only purpose is to change toe-in and with that frontal aero surface is reduced.
those things are in the bodywork section, and the steering isn't bodywork is it? How would they manage if this applied to the steering or wheels?
any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance must remain
immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car

jrdh
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:33 pm
What I don't understand is any moveable aero is forbidden.

With toe-in your wheels have a larger frontal aero surface then with toe neutral. So by moving the wheels to toe-neutral you are having less of an aero impact and as such it is moveable aero. They way how you achieve it does not really matter anymore. The fact that you have a way of controlling it to your suit is enough to call this moveable.

Then, to make matters worse, there is the way you control it, yes you use the steering wheel, but not to steer, just to actively control the aero frontal impact of the front wheels. When pulling the steer toward you and when pushing it away you are not steering at all, you are moving in a straight line. The only purpose is to change toe-in and with that frontal aero surface is reduced.
I agree with this assessment 100%. I find it kind of strange that other teams are not arguing this!

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turbof1
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:30 pm
izzy wrote:it was obviously supposed to be illegal, but Mercedes spotted a loophole in the wording, i.e. "IF" the steering wheel is fixed, and FIA have been consulted, done the decent thing with the cars already being designed to those rules, accepted the loophole was there, and closed it for next year. Gorgeous F1! Thank god it's not quite a spec series yet
How they should do things. Allow the looohole for the year and then close it. I enjoy seeing innovations that at least see a season out than ones that never see the light of day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would have preferred 2 years. 1 year for the team to take advantage of the idea as other teams will have a lot of issues adopting this in their existing cars, and another year for the competition to adapt and integrate it.
jrdh wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:50 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:33 pm
What I don't understand is any moveable aero is forbidden.

With toe-in your wheels have a larger frontal aero surface then with toe neutral. So by moving the wheels to toe-neutral you are having less of an aero impact and as such it is moveable aero. They way how you achieve it does not really matter anymore. The fact that you have a way of controlling it to your suit is enough to call this moveable.

Then, to make matters worse, there is the way you control it, yes you use the steering wheel, but not to steer, just to actively control the aero frontal impact of the front wheels. When pulling the steer toward you and when pushing it away you are not steering at all, you are moving in a straight line. The only purpose is to change toe-in and with that frontal aero surface is reduced.
I agree with this assessment 100%. I find it kind of strange that other teams are not arguing this!
Who says that they aren't going to? I mean I don't think there will be a protest, but for now this is testing. Asides the crash tests, you are absolutely allowed to run an illegal car right now. Furthermore, lodging official protest in Melbourne could mean potentially Mercedes losing points.

But to be honest, I don't think they can succesfully argue it falls foul of the moveable aero rule. Because the wheel already is inheritingly a moveable device. It spinning and rotation means it is putting the aerodynamics around it in constant flux. You'd have to argue that a device, the wheel, has more "moveable aero" than before, but I don't see how the regulations will make that illegal. The catch all aero rule there is construed for bodywork and whatever that was not moveable in the first place, not for a device that already is and is widely accepted as such.
#AeroFrodo

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SiLo
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:52 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:30 pm
izzy wrote:it was obviously supposed to be illegal, but Mercedes spotted a loophole in the wording, i.e. "IF" the steering wheel is fixed, and FIA have been consulted, done the decent thing with the cars already being designed to those rules, accepted the loophole was there, and closed it for next year. Gorgeous F1! Thank god it's not quite a spec series yet
How they should do things. Allow the looohole for the year and then close it. I enjoy seeing innovations that at least see a season out than ones that never see the light of day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would have preferred 2 years. 1 year for the team to take advantage of the idea as other teams will have a lot of issues adopting this in their existing cars, and another year for the competition to adapt and integrate it.
I guess 2 years would be better, although with the big rule change coming up it makes sense to just rule it out now before any other team spends time trying to get it onto the 2021 car a bit late.
Felipe Baby!

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izzy
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:52 pm
I would have preferred 2 years. 1 year for the team to take advantage of the idea as other teams will have a lot of issues adopting this in their existing cars, and another year for the competition to adapt and integrate it.
i think it's quite nice and tantalising at one year, like will they copy or not? :? just a nice on-the-edge challenge. Or if it was really a good idea to have all the cars fiddling with their toe-in/out at 300kph they might as well just make it legal, as they all would definitely do it for next year as you say

pantherxxx
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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jrdh wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:50 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:33 pm
What I don't understand is any moveable aero is forbidden.

With toe-in your wheels have a larger frontal aero surface then with toe neutral. So by moving the wheels to toe-neutral you are having less of an aero impact and as such it is moveable aero. They way how you achieve it does not really matter anymore. The fact that you have a way of controlling it to your suit is enough to call this moveable.

Then, to make matters worse, there is the way you control it, yes you use the steering wheel, but not to steer, just to actively control the aero frontal impact of the front wheels. When pulling the steer toward you and when pushing it away you are not steering at all, you are moving in a straight line. The only purpose is to change toe-in and with that frontal aero surface is reduced.
I agree with this assessment 100%. I find it kind of strange that other teams are not arguing this!
I think it's possible that teams will only veto DAS after the first race, in hope that Mercedes will be disqualified from that race.

Peter1919
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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pantherxxx wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:58 pm
I think it's possible that teams will only veto DAS after the first race, in hope that Mercedes will be disqualified from that race.
The teams don't get to veto it, they can lodge a formal protest and then IIRC the race stewards get to decide if its race legal or not

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bluechris
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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There are politics involved between the teams, meaning, i let this one slip with the possibility that mercedes will do the same for me.
Either way mercedes seem super fast with or without it so the rest can do nothing and say that they loose because of this as an alibi.

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Sieper
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Ferrari seems to have already tested the system and ran into problems;

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Big Tea
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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If they challenge the legality now, and win, Merc wil have from now til the first race to come up with a workround or adaption and the pre-season will not be messed up. If they wait until the first race and protest, Merc then start from there without the same data
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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hollus
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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I guess there is a decent chance that this is challenged in Melbourne and outlawed form the next race. It wouldn't be the first time FIA acknowledges to have allowed an unforeseen thing in the rules and declared a date at which it becomes illegal, they did that with hot or cold blowing, I can't remember which.
In any case, Mercedes can "legalize" its car in extremely short notice, just by immobilizing the system.

On a slightly less serious note:
10.2.1 With the steering wheel fixed...
We are arguing that they comply with the letter of the rules, but, really, they do not have a steering wheel at all. Or shall we start arguing about the definition of a wheel? ;-)
¡Puxa Esportin!

pimpwerx
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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henry wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:28 pm
This post about 2021 was raised in the W11 thread, I thought it better discussed here.

pimpwerx wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:07 am
Can someone can help me interpret parts of this rule better:

10.5.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels, as defined by the position of the inboard attachment of the relevant suspensions members that remain a fixed distance from each other, must be uniquely defined by a monotonic function of the rotational position of a single steering wheel.


Does this prohibit moving the wheel ends of the steering arms up and down to push/pull the wheels in and out to change the toe angle?

Does this prohibit building a steering wheel bracket that would simulate the current push/pull activation method for the system?
- This one I think limits any z-axis movement of the steering wheel, due to the word "monotonic".


The second part of the rule seems easier to understand than the first part. I assume monotonic means that if you implemented push/pull passively via rotation (kinda like turning a screw), then it's no longer monotonic. However, the first part of the rule confuses me a bit. It only refers to the inboard attachment, meaning in the monocoque. Vertical motion (like flapping a wing) would replicate the same effect, assuming you has some kind telescoping end on the wheelside joint. Such a joint could potentially have the telescopic motion keyed so that telescoping is only allowed under certain steering angles, or more likely loads. That doubt leads me to think that we might not see the end of DAS come 2021.
This rule wouldn't prevent moving the wheel ends of the steering arm but I’m not sure how you’d do that and you can achieve the same effect by moving the inboard end of the steering arm.

The word rotational is the one that restricts the Z movement. Monotonic simply means that the angular movement wheels must follow the angular movement of the steering wheel, the incremental direction of the wheels can never reverse.

The reference to inboard attachment is to the ball joints at the ends of the rack.

But I think you’re right some form of cam arrangement, driven by the rotary motion of the steering wheel, that simulates the Z movement currently exercised by the drivers would be allowed by my reading of these rules. It would be similar effect to Ackerman but I think more tuneable.
Thanks henry. I figured the rules could have been easily worded to specify that toe angles changes should be performed in the same direction for both wheels. This would still allow Ackerman steering, but would prevent the opposite toe direction changes that DAS performs. The wording of these rules seems very intentional, unless this was an oversight (or I'm misinterpreting).

AJI
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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hollus wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:20 pm
...but, really, they do not have a steering wheel at all. Or shall we start arguing about the definition of a wheel? ;-)
The device formerly known as the steering wheel, like when Prince changed his name

erikejw
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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"10.4.5 Power steering is allowed but such system may not carry out any function other than reduce the physical effort required to steer the car and must allow the steering to continue to function when all hydraulic and/or electric power is shut down."

Since DAS is part of the steering Mercedes needs to show that their drivers can do the toe in and toe out as efficient without the help of power steering, otherwise it should be deemed a safety hazard and forbidden.

Imagine a car with power steering and a malfunction( Senna comes to mind), then uncapable to operate.

erikejw
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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erikejw wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:50 pm
"10.4.5 Power steering is allowed but such system may not carry out any function other than reduce the physical effort required to steer the car and must allow the steering to continue to function when all hydraulic and/or electric power is shut down."

Since DAS is part of the steering Mercedes needs to show that their drivers can do the toe in and toe out as efficient without the help of power steering, otherwise it should be deemed a safety hazard and forbidden.

Imagine a car with power steering and a malfunction( Senna comes to mind), then uncapable to operate.

DAS might not even use use power steering, hydraulics. Then all of the above is forfeit.