Alfa Romeo C41

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f1316
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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It’s interesting to me that, starting with last year’s Renault, teams are now starting to go back to a convex shape on the actual surface of the nose. For a while these had converged towards being entirely flat - my understanding being that this created more downforce on the nose surface itself - whereas perhaps the curved surface is being now being explored because of how it channels the air differently?

Whatever the reason, it’s nice when the more aesthetically pleasing shape becomes something teams are pursuing for performance reasons.

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Sieper
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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wowgr8 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:40 pm
Mansell89 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:31 pm
Thinner nose this year- indicative of something we may expect to see from the Ferrari works team?
Alfa don't follow Ferrari aero concepts and vice versa, they're totally different cars. If it was Haas maybe but even then, why would Ferrari copy one of its customers like that? It happens the other way around
Yes ofcourse it is likely the other way around. that is why we use words as indicative. Alfa is just quicker to show the car. I think Ferrari will have the smaller nosecone and cape as well for this year.

Fulvio2044
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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Similarities with Mercedes

Image

Image

HungarianRacer
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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stan_french wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm
HungarianRacer wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:00 pm
stan_french wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:34 pm


no, i wouldnt think so, if anything it means that they're expecting the engine not to be super powerful. Because the narrow nose works best at lower speeds, whilst the large nose works best at high speeds, and is usually prone to stalling at lower speeds...
That's a ridiculous line of logic.... How much would an - in F1 terms - "weak" engine offset the operating window of a car within it's aero efficiency curve? Will it significantly lower top speed/approach velocity to high speed corners? Will horsepower deficiency on it's own make a car worse in low-medium speed turns? I don't think so...
There's a great little thing from reddit i highly recommend you read, i think it shed's more light in my line of thinking:

https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/co ... ame=iossmf

But basically it explains that a car's aero development can be limited by the engine to a certain degree. especially when the aero is made for ever increasing horsepower. And notably the larger nose is said to help cars in higher speed, however it is also more prone to stalling at lower speeds than the narrower nose. What I'm trying to say is that i think the reason they went down the narrow nose path was because they do not have anymore the Ferrari horsepower advantage which greatly helped their nose concept in accelerating the air to the bargeboard. So in order to better suit the car to the engine, they decided to focus on something which the slightly underpowered engine could better help with, which is with the narrower nose, and thus helping their car work better at slightly slower speeds, and reducing the proneness of the nose to stalling.
Well, without sounding too rude, that reddit post feels to me like something from an engineering freshman - who's an F1 fan - putting 2+2 together for the first time and writing a post as a lightbulb turns on above his scalp...

Aerodinamical drag rises exponentially (quadratically with prefectly rigid bodywork and suspension) with velocity, so the thing you have to realize is, when you take a baseline of 1000+ horsepower, maybe around 900 if you're conisdering average output in power-limited scenarios over a race distance, an "F1-significant" deficit of 30-40 hp (of the 2020 Ferrari PU) ISN'T going to offset the equilibrium point where the propulsion and resistive forces declare a stalemate by that much...

As for the realtive pros and cons of a wide nose vs a narrow one, I'm not sure where you got these generalizations from, also not entirely clear to me what you mean exactly... Most people intuitively think that a narrow nosecone means less drag because of the smaller surface area, but any extra uninterrupted high energy airflow that a smaller nose lets by will hit other aero surfaces further downstream anyway (AND pressure gradients behind will influence the nose's aero performance itself), so that's a generalization you certainly cannot make, BUT you are on about something else here... Maybe you are suggesting that they might as well focus on low speed cornering prowess, if they have to live with an inherit straight line deficit(?)... Perhaps you could elaborate on that specific line of reasoning of yours a little bit further still...
Last edited by HungarianRacer on Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ryaan2904
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:57 pm
wowgr8 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:40 pm
Mansell89 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:31 pm
Thinner nose this year- indicative of something we may expect to see from the Ferrari works team?
Alfa don't follow Ferrari aero concepts and vice versa, they're totally different cars. If it was Haas maybe but even then, why would Ferrari copy one of its customers like that? It happens the other way around
Yes ofcourse it is likely the other way around. that is why we use words as indicative. Alfa is just quicker to show the car. I think Ferrari will have the smaller nosecone and cape as well for this year.
I dont think they have the tokens for that..

trinidefender
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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stan_french wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm
HungarianRacer wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:00 pm
stan_french wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:34 pm


no, i wouldnt think so, if anything it means that they're expecting the engine not to be super powerful. Because the narrow nose works best at lower speeds, whilst the large nose works best at high speeds, and is usually prone to stalling at lower speeds...
That's a ridiculous line of logic.... How much would an - in F1 terms - "weak" engine offset the operating window of a car within it's aero efficiency curve? Will it significantly lower top speed/approach velocity to high speed corners? Will horsepower deficiency on it's own make a car worse in low-medium speed turns? I don't think so...
There's a great little thing from reddit i highly recommend you read, i think it shed's more light in my line of thinking:

https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/co ... ame=iossmf

But basically it explains that a car's aero development can be limited by the engine to a certain degree. especially when the aero is made for ever increasing horsepower. And notably the larger nose is said to help cars in higher speed, however it is also more prone to stalling at lower speeds than the narrower nose. What I'm trying to say is that i think the reason they went down the narrow nose path was because they do not have anymore the Ferrari horsepower advantage which greatly helped their nose concept in accelerating the air to the bargeboard. So in order to better suit the car to the engine, they decided to focus on something which the slightly underpowered engine could better help with, which is with the narrower nose, and thus helping their car work better at slightly slower speeds, and reducing the proneness of the nose to stalling.
Except you've provided absolutely no evidence to say that the narrow nose works better at low speeds and the wide nose works better at high speeds, or even that the wide nose has some issue with stalling (where on the nose are you proposing that the stall would happen? this would be a very design specific trait varying from team to team)

LM10
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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stan_french wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:34 pm
Mansell89 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:31 pm
Thinner nose this year- indicative of something we may expect to see from the Ferrari works team?
no, i wouldnt think so, if anything it means that they're expecting the engine not to be super powerful. Because the narrow nose works best at lower speeds, whilst the large nose works best at high speeds, and is usually prone to stalling at lower speeds...
Have the other teams gone the thin nose route because of weak engines?

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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Amazing Car launch.. probably the best ive seen in a long time... doesnt count for anything- but i hope they go well this year.
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

stan_french
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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trinidefender wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:34 pm
stan_french wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm
HungarianRacer wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:00 pm


That's a ridiculous line of logic.... How much would an - in F1 terms - "weak" engine offset the operating window of a car within it's aero efficiency curve? Will it significantly lower top speed/approach velocity to high speed corners? Will horsepower deficiency on it's own make a car worse in low-medium speed turns? I don't think so...
There's a great little thing from reddit i highly recommend you read, i think it shed's more light in my line of thinking:

https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/co ... ame=iossmf

But basically it explains that a car's aero development can be limited by the engine to a certain degree. especially when the aero is made for ever increasing horsepower. And notably the larger nose is said to help cars in higher speed, however it is also more prone to stalling at lower speeds than the narrower nose. What I'm trying to say is that i think the reason they went down the narrow nose path was because they do not have anymore the Ferrari horsepower advantage which greatly helped their nose concept in accelerating the air to the bargeboard. So in order to better suit the car to the engine, they decided to focus on something which the slightly underpowered engine could better help with, which is with the narrower nose, and thus helping their car work better at slightly slower speeds, and reducing the proneness of the nose to stalling.
Except you've provided absolutely no evidence to say that the narrow nose works better at low speeds and the wide nose works better at high speeds, or even that the wide nose has some issue with stalling (where on the nose are you proposing that the stall would happen? this would be a very design specific trait varying from team to team)
Sorry, i've seemed to forgotten the second part:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gbeZt.html

the specific sentence in that that i would like to point out is this one:

"When the airflow falls below a critical speed [on the wide nose], it can leave parts of the under-nose area unenergised in a dead zone – leading to loss of control of the flow. The wide nose tends to work better at higher speeds."

My thought is simply, what if when you combine those 2 pieces of information (that is that off the aero possibly not working on the ferrari because of an under performing engine, and this second quote), what if the nose they had planned actually fell below the "critical speed" more often than anticipated in the simulations and resulted in said aero stalling? And this wide nose concept was to a lesser degree pursued by alfa romeo.

It would thereby make the narrowing of the nose a logical step, because it is simply adaptating itself to cancel this deadzone beneath the nose and control better the airflow. Another hint that i thought also might prove the point im trying to make, is that they have made their nose clearly quite a lot more concave than last year, and have changed the whole undernose aerodynamics, introducing notably a cape. Perhaps this is all in a bid to control better the airflow under the nose and to the bargeboards?

I apologise if i did not make it clear, and for forgetting the second half of my research! Will be more precise next time! :))
Last edited by stan_french on Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sieper
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:07 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:57 pm
wowgr8 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:40 pm


Alfa don't follow Ferrari aero concepts and vice versa, they're totally different cars. If it was Haas maybe but even then, why would Ferrari copy one of its customers like that? It happens the other way around
Yes ofcourse it is likely the other way around. that is why we use words as indicative. Alfa is just quicker to show the car. I think Ferrari will have the smaller nosecone and cape as well for this year.
I dont think they have the tokens for that..
Maybe a stupid question but do you need tokens for a different nosecone? It is part of the FW.

wesley123
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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stan_french wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:54 pm
Sorry, i've seemed to forgotten the second part:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gbeZt.html

the specific sentence in that that i would like to point out is this one:

"When the airflow falls below a critical speed [on the wide nose], it can leave parts of the under-nose area unenergised in a dead zone – leading to loss of control of the flow. The wide nose tends to work better at higher speeds."

My thought is simply, what if when you combine those 2 pieces of information (that is that off the aero possibly not working on the ferrari because of an under performing engine, and this second quote), what if the nose they had planned actually fell below the "critical speed" more often than anticipated in the simulations and resulted in said aero stalling? And this wide nose concept was to a lesser degree pursued by alfa romeo.

It would thereby make the narrowing of the nose a logical step, because it is simply adaptating itself to cancel this deadzone beneath the nose and control better the airflow. Another hint that i thought also might prove the point im trying to make, is that they have made their nose clearly quite a lot more concave than last year, and have changed the whole undernose aerodynamics, introducing notably a cape. Perhaps this is all in a bid to control better the airflow under the nose and to the bargeboards?

I apologise if i did not make it clear, and for forgetting the second half of my research! Will be more precise next time! :))
Where on the nose could such a thing possibly occur? The underside of the nose isn't steeply angled in any way, for example. I'm also not sure what parts would be 'unreachable'(as to put it), nothing on the nose is particularly hidden or anything.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Ringleheim
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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Love the ALFA red color, but that more modernized ALFA logo on the engine cover is not so great.

Looks like they are wisely focusing on 2022!

senja
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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billamend wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:23 pm
Sevach wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:07 pm
The nose reminds me of Mclaren circa 2018 (i think).

Good looking car.
Seems like a mix between Mclaren and Red Bull.

https://media-cdn.mclaren.com/media/ima ... l35_V2.jpg
https://e00-marca.uecdn.es/assets/multi ... 537628.jpg
Except they have nose with holes before them...

the EDGE
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:59 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:07 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:57 pm


Yes ofcourse it is likely the other way around. that is why we use words as indicative. Alfa is just quicker to show the car. I think Ferrari will have the smaller nosecone and cape as well for this year.
I dont think they have the tokens for that..
Maybe a stupid question but do you need tokens for a different nosecone? It is part of the FW.
Yes you do

The following changes would all require 2 tokens each to make:-

Front crash structure (aka the nose cone)
The gear box
The rear suspension
The cooling system (although minor mods can be made token free)
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6-19_1.pdf (Page 100)

So teams (including Ferrari & their engine customers) can only choose to change 1 of these areas
Last edited by the EDGE on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

the EDGE
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Re: Alfa Romeo C41

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Xwang wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:54 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:47 pm
Xwang wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:45 pm


Isn't Alfa using the same updated gearbox and suspension of Ferrari? If so they have used their tokens in that area like Ferrari.
No, one of the two guys even said that they used both their tokens on the front and that the gearbox is the same
So Alfa is going to use last year Ferrari gearbox and internal rear suspension. Did I understand correctly?
Lasts years C39 was already running the 2020 Ferrari gear box & rear suspension

They will continue to run the same 2020 spec Ferrari rear ended as last year on the C41

This is exactly the same situation for Haas as well