90s Roll Hoops

[glockster1980]

Hello to all,
I am new here, so Hi everyone! Been a passive reader until today and I am puzzling since a long time how the Roll Hoops of the 90s were manufactured and I hope anyone has got more Info about that.

In the 80s and nowadays it was like pretty obvious as the metal structures can be seen under the composite fairings, fitted on top of the Monocoques. But on the typical 90s Monocoques none of the manufacturing hints can be found. I wonder if anyone of you has any info about that? Maybe even some pictures of details or technical drawings how they were made.

It's a little hard to believe they were actually made of carbon and structural part of the Monocoque, as this would really be a piece of "black metal". And even if they were I would be interested of the actual way they did it. As an example I would name the FW14B, the MP4-8 or the B194 (and like a 100 more). Would appreciate if anyone has more info here.

[ScrewCaptain27]

Quite similar to current ones I believe, made of metal then covered by bonded-on carbon fairings. Look at this Giorgio Piola drawing of the Williams FW15C for example:

[glockster1980]

Thanks for the reply. But this is no Williams, its a J192 (seen at the 10 Cylinder Yamaha). This one also had an obvious Steel Roll Hoop attached to the top without any composite fairing, just covered by the bodywork when mounted. You can actually see that it is bolted to the Monocoque on this pictures. So, yes I see your point but still only a guess.

[glockster1980]

Just to clarify. My question refers more to this type of roll hoops in the attached pic of a FW14B. Could be a fairing or a structural part. Thats the question.

[Giando]

Great question / topic. I've always wondered the same.

[Giando]

I believe that, for the most part, roll bars always were pieces separated but joints and bolts were like drawned down in a carbon bodywork arc or chassis surface, therefore 'invisible'.

But in some cases it's very hard to spot that, and the suspect that the roll hoop was integrated into the chassis is quite strong, like in this specific case... Lotus 107b from 1993

[glockster1980]

A possible hint on pictures like the Lotus would be the very suspicious constant wall thickness of the roll hoop which would be untypical for composites. Also the very even and flat outer and inner structure. But fairing or sanding afterwards would also explain this, so still no proof.

I also have a nice pic how it is done today. Its a Caterham.



Before 1991 they where pretty much all visible steel structures bolted on top (as seen on this 643)



But from there on (until middle of 2000s) its still a mystery how they did it. I even already tried to contact Williams Herritage and McLaren, but as expected they dont even answer me.
I am still pleased though by even more pictures of Details, so keep them coming

[glockster1980]

For raising the interest of my topic here are some pictures where the manufacturing method clearly can be seen (but not what I am refering to in my question):

[glockster1980]

And for comparrison here are some examples which are questionable, and what my topic is all about. Maybe there is an old engineer or Mechanic out there, willing to help us out with his knowledge. How are the manufactured? Maybe even some Pics or drawings...

[ScrewCaptain27]

Thanks for the reply. But this is no Williams, its a J192 (seen at the 10 Cylinder Yamaha). This one also had an obvious Steel Roll Hoop attached to the top without any composite fairing, just covered by the bodywork when mounted. You can actually see that it is bolted to the Monocoque on this pictures. So, yes I see your point but still only a guess.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2382/RkZfIz.jpg

Motorsport.com being inaccurate with labels again...Anyway if we want to be really picky it’s a Jordan 193 with the Hart V10, not a 192. Yamaha engine was a V12, until they rebadged the Judd V10 for 1993.

[glockster1980]

Motorsport.com being inaccurate with labels again...Anyway if we want to be really picky it’s a Jordan 193 with the Hart V10, not a 192. Yamaha engine was a V12, until they rebadged the Judd V10 for 1993.

Hey Mate,
Sorry my bad. I dont wanted to be a smartass there. Youre absolutely correct in this point.

[jjn9128]

Was it the Brabham BT52 which had a full carbon roll hoop? Entirely possible some of these in the 90s went carbon. I think they went back to metal when the roll hoop push test came in?! Or at least when the push test was strengthened.

[glockster1980]

Was it the Brabham BT52 which had a full carbon roll hoop? Entirely possible some of these in the 90s went carbon. I think they went back to metal when the roll hoop push test came in?! Or at least when the push test was strengthened.

The Brabham actually was. Thanks for the Tip, I was originally not aware of this.

[willga]

The 1998-2002 Arrows F1 cars had a solid carbon roll hoop which was separately rivetted and bonded to the top of the monocoque - I assume this was industry standard at the time.

The 2016 Manor MRT05 had a machined titanium roll hoop bonded/rivetted to the tub. I don't know whether the shift is because of greater static tests for the hoop, or if this is how most of the teams do it nowadays.

It's always going to be a balance of strength versus having weight that high up in the car. And there will be budgetary constraints to consider too.

[glockster1980]

The 1998-2002 Arrows F1 cars had a solid carbon roll hoop which was separately rivetted and bonded to the top of the monocoque - I assume this was industry standard at the time.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... upMAN9.jpg

Do you have pictures of this solid carbon roll hoops?