Red Bull RB7 Renault

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myurr
myurr
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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ringo wrote:Their sidepods have an 11% downforce advantage. That's not down to any gimmicks or fan-dangles.
The lack of undercut on both these cars is also another clue.
Colour me skeptical but I'll believe it when it's copied by other teams. I don't doubt that you're seeing these kinds of numbers in your CFD analysis, but where my doubt comes in is that your models are not going to be anywhere near as refined and highly tuned as the real F1 cars. It's entirely possible that all you've discovered is that the changes produce an 11% benefit for your model because it just so happens to optimise your cars design. Other teams may have similar overall solutions so that the benefit to their designs would be limited or non-existent.

It's easy to point at something that has been on the last few Red Bulls as being something unique to them - but at the same time each of the last few RBs has been a subtle evolution of the last so there are bound to be retained features and shapes. That the other cars do not have it does not mean they haven't found alternative or even better solutions. I find it hard to believe that the hundreds of millions of pounds spent up and down the pit lane each year on aero research have failed to find this 'secret' that will be obvious when it's pointed out to us.

Still I'll look forward to seeing your CFD analysis and will be most willing to be proven wrong if it is adopted elsewhere on the grid.

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amouzouris
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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ringo wrote:predicting is one thing, quantifying is another.
The rb7 was the fastest, did any of us know why?
Not really.

It wasnt the flexi wings, or any of that unfounded crazy stuff.

Put it this way, i'll reveal the last detail, but just a bit longer till i can present it better.
I'm not teasing but i need more time to demonstrate it. The first race is also a good metric on whether redbull is still enjoying that advantage.
Whether E20 lotus makes a step forward is another metric.

Their sidepods have an 11% downforce advantage. That's not down to any gimmicks or fan-dangles.
The lack of undercut on both these cars is also another clue.
ringo..would what you are talking about have anything to do with the bodywork behind the radiators? if it is very close to the radiators, it would be reducing the low pressure area behind the radiators so making the floor more efficient and the sidepods smaller allowing more air from the outside to get to the diffuser..also the air exiting from the central cone is again of relatively higher pressure...

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raymondu999
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:31 am

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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11% over... what? What is the "benchmark" 100% figure coming from?
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MIKEY_!
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:07 am

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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I'm guessing U-pods, I think ringo did some CFD on a model of the RB7 sidepods and the U-pods last year and this figure of 11% seems familiar.

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ringo
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Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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myurr wrote:
ringo wrote:Their sidepods have an 11% downforce advantage. That's not down to any gimmicks or fan-dangles.
The lack of undercut on both these cars is also another clue.
Colour me skeptical but I'll believe it when it's copied by other teams. I don't doubt that you're seeing these kinds of numbers in your CFD analysis, but where my doubt comes in is that your models are not going to be anywhere near as refined and highly tuned as the real F1 cars. It's entirely possible that all you've discovered is that the changes produce an 11% benefit for your model because it just so happens to optimise your cars design. Other teams may have similar overall solutions so that the benefit to their designs would be limited or non-existent.

It's easy to point at something that has been on the last few Red Bulls as being something unique to them - but at the same time each of the last few RBs has been a subtle evolution of the last so there are bound to be retained features and shapes. That the other cars do not have it does not mean they haven't found alternative or even better solutions. I find it hard to believe that the hundreds of millions of pounds spent up and down the pit lane each year on aero research have failed to find this 'secret' that will be obvious when it's pointed out to us.

Still I'll look forward to seeing your CFD analysis and will be most willing to be proven wrong if it is adopted elsewhere on the grid.
I dont use my car model to run the tests. I used simplified and controlled shapes to prove a theory. You have experiment with certain variables at certain extremes and the results will say what is better and what is worse.
Similar to any science experiment. Use of simplicity and extremes.

Refinement is not really an issue here. You cant refine something that is predefined. For example say you do a test comparing aero of a brick and a tennis ball and a cylinder as the middle ground. Nothing to refine in that.

About the last paragraph, remember these engineers are only humans, no matter how much money is involved. I've pointed out many thing with this car that teams never copied till the following year. They simply had their own concepts that they couldn't sidetrack from.

If your gonna prove me wrong when the time comes, you need the data first. But what i will say is watchout for Lotus E20 and RB8. :wink:
For Sure!!

RB7ate9
RB7ate9
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:03 am

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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My name notwithstanding, I would LOVE to see Red Bull and Lotus duking it out in front! Not to mention a splendid duel between two certain WDCs! [-o<

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flynfrog
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:31 pm

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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for a website that is based on exchanging ideas and information this whole I have a secret thing is pretty stupid a pretty desperate plea for attention. You either know what it is and can explain your idea or you don't. When you make a claim such as 11% my money is on the BS.

RB7ate9
RB7ate9
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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May I make a suggestion?

With the onset of the new season and the new RB8, I propose that this thread remain dormant regarding Ringo's statements about a secret Red Bull aspect. Other comments, such as concrete evidence pertaining to the RB7 in particular (i.e. detailed pictures, schematics, output numbers, comparison graphs to other cars, reminiscing about its dominance) be allowed.

This condition will continue until Ringo is ready to present his findings in his own time and of his own accord, as there can be no coercion nor forcible extraction of information on these forums. Whether he reveals it tomorrow, after Australia, or Brazil, is up to him.

Any further posts inquiring about progress, clues, guesses, or remarks pertaining specifically to Ringo's estimation of the RB7's hidden successful trait be either put into a new thread or directed to this post, citing its moratorium on discussion about "Ringo's RB7 Secrets".

The anticipation, skepticism, and cynicism are all understandable. This forum, indeed, is a place where ideas are exchanged and critically reviewed by our peers, sometimes tersely, but ultimately for the wider benefit of expanding our knowledge of Formula 1 and motorsport by and large. But, because of that same feeling, it would be wise to put a hold on further discussion until there is something to discuss at all.

What say we?

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MIKEY_!
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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Yes we say!

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ringo
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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raymondu999 wrote:11% over... what? What is the "benchmark" 100% figure coming from?
Conventional design. An example is the williams sidepods. pretty conventional.

E20 is doing well as predicted, no surprise there.
RB8 is unstable. Reason being the bridge is pretty messy a shape. And we and redbull may not know if the exhaust gases are moving around over the bridge,or even if they are cooling too much at high speeds.

I'm waiting for race results though. Need to observe a bit more.
For Sure!!

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banibhusan
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Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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It may have been discussed before already somewhere, but I still feel like asking again.

Does anyone have the race fuel figures of the cars than ran with EBD last year, or at least an approximate calculation? Especially for the RBR, McLaren and Ferrari.

I just want to know on an average how much more fuel these cars consumed because of the EBD, how much of an weight advantage the RB had because of the highly fuel efficient Renault engines.

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raymondu999
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:31 am

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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No figures cross engine; but the 2011 Renault used 10% more fuel in the race because of their blowing.
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MIKEY_!
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:07 am

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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There are fuel tank sizes out there. They will give you a rough idea. Formula sketch must have standard tank dimensions but I don't know what engines they use.

I'll PM you if I find out more.