Chinese GP 2005

Principessa · Post 18 Oct 2005, 17:32

Now I sounded like a pacifist

manchild · Post 18 Oct 2005, 18:50

Peace sister

DaveKillens · Post 19 Oct 2005, 18:34

Didn't McLaren do such a similar strategy at Spa? They had a safety car come out, and at the time Mclaren were 1-2. The second McLaren developed a large gap, and when they came up on the pits, the first car was able to pit and leave before the second car got into the pits.
Face it, if given the opportunity, everyone will use strategy and the rules allowed to advance their position. Especially since so much money is at stake. Anyone ever wonder the bonus Flavio is entitled to for bringing the constructors' title?
It's a shame Montoya had to retire, he has some terrible talent for hitting the worst things.

RH1300S · Post 19 Oct 2005, 20:25

DaveKillens wrote:Didn't McLaren do such a similar strategy at Spa? They had a safety car come out, and at the time Mclaren were 1-2. The second McLaren developed a large gap, and when they came up on the pits, the first car was able to pit and leave before the second car got into the pits.
Face it, if given the opportunity, everyone will use strategy and the rules allowed to advance their position. Especially since so much money is at stake. Anyone ever wonder the bonus Flavio is entitled to for bringing the constructors' title?
It's a shame Montoya had to retire, he has some terrible talent for hitting the worst things.

They did - hence the rule "clarification" to stop everyone doing it

Hudsonhawk · Post 20 Oct 2005, 14:10

Consider me as Renault’s lawyer…

Well......you may think your veins pump blood which is blue and yellow but your merely color blind......

Your blood is a red as MS

You have completely contradicted everything you have been saying.

Is there any difference between a lawyer for jamar islamir or the taliban or Hamas ???

Catch you on the highway

DaveKillens · Post 20 Oct 2005, 14:16

Please explain the previous post Hudson.

manchild · Post 20 Oct 2005, 14:32

HH,

I was defending Renault (Fisi) because only they have been punished for something other teams have also done and went unpunished.

Rules must be the same for everyone.

Perhaps I should have mentioned this at the beginning of this argument regarding penalty Fisi got.

Until the notification at the bottom of the screen appeared mentioning car 6, I had no idea that there was an accident at all and same goes for guys commenting the race from TV studio.

Everyone was surprised which at least from my point of view confirms that legality of such penalty is highly questionable. Having in mind positions in the race before that pit entry and obvious advantage in performance of R25 I’m sure that Renault F1 team didn’t give such instructions to Fisichella as much as I’m sure that Fisichella has selected one of two possible options to handle that situation.

As I’ve already mentioned in one of my previous posts since Alonso had already occupied the pit Fisi could choose to get in more slowly or to get in fast and than choke the pitlane or block the car in the garage before Renault’s. That means that he’d be found guilty regardless of his choice.

I don’t understand how this move can be considered as premeditated illegality when he was the one who decided to go in the pits before Kimi and Schuey. They followed him and got slowed behind for reasons I still can’t define as deliberate since I see that situation caused by SC and mass pit entry. Only thing sporting regulations say about such situations is that driver in lead can choose the trajectory and speed.

Decision to go in pits right behind driver in front of you brings along some possible difficulties like getting stuck behind crashed or stalled car since pit entry is narrow. Once again I repeat that race control couldn’t have known that Fisi was deliberately too slow and only for reason to block Kimi without taking in consideration that his pit was taken by another driver.

So, how can anyone be sure that Fisi was deliberate and not in problems or just cautious?

====================================
What follows is OT so I expect it to be deleted or moderated.

Saying that I’m lawyer was my symbolic response to jaslfc posts. Secondly, I hate lawyers - especially those who specialize in defending criminals.

I agree with list of lawyers you posted even though Bush senior and Bush junior lawyers are missing.

In general - lawyers of all bloodhanded warmongering militant individuals, politicians, organizations and parties all over the globe…

GuestAgain · Post 20 Oct 2005, 17:29

manchild wrote:

I was defending Renault (Fisi) because only they have been punished for something other teams have also done and went unpunished.

Rules must be the same for everyone.

Yes the rules are the same for everyone and if you and Fisi were paying attention, you would know that this was banned after the last time kimi did it. It was announce that this will be punished.

Until the notification at the bottom of the screen appeared mentioning car 6, I had no idea that there was an accident at all and same goes for guys commenting the race from TV studio.

Wrong. In fact Martin Brundle commented on it the minute fisi did it.

So, how can anyone be sure that Fisi was deliberate and not in problems or just cautious?

That fact is that he did it, delibrate or not. If someone accidentally vicisouly slaps you, you stay slapped, accidental or not. Because it was accidental does not mean you were not slapped. Knowing the new ruling, Fisi should have been paying attention or perhaps he forgot.

In fact you contradict yourself when you said it was not deliberate:

As I’ve already mentioned in one of my previous posts since Alonso had already occupied the pit Fisi could choose to get in more slowly or to get in fast and than choke the pitlane or block the car in the garage before Renault’s.

This implies it was deliberate and this was precisely what the new ruling was about. Fisi had 2 choices, park behind and wait for alonso, or go round again.

manchild · Post 20 Oct 2005, 17:33

GuestAgain wrote:This implies it was deliberate and this was precisely what the new ruling was about. Fisi had 2 choices, park behind and wait for alonso, or go round again.

That is what I'm saying - who can say that that parking behind Alonso wouldn't cause exit problems for car in the garages behind Renault's?

GuestAgain · Post 20 Oct 2005, 18:03

We dont know. But this is about the legality of what he DID do.

f1.redbaron · Post 20 Oct 2005, 18:10

manchild wrote:HH,

As I’ve already mentioned in one of my previous posts since Alonso had already occupied the pit Fisi could choose to get in more slowly or to get in fast and than choke the pitlane or block the car in the garage before Renault’s. That means that he’d be found guilty regardless of his choice.

I don’t understand how this move can be considered as premeditated illegality when he was the one who decided to go in the pits before Kimi and Schuey. They followed him and got slowed behind for reasons I still can’t define as deliberate since I see that situation caused by SC and mass pit entry. Only thing sporting regulations say about such situations is that driver in lead can choose the trajectory and speed.

Yeah, but it doesn't take a genious to figure out that he did it on purpose - even though FIA cannot prove it beoynd any reasonable doubt. I mean, come on - you know that your team-mate had just dove into the pits and you're right behind him. What do you do? You have to give your pit crew some time. And Kimi knew this...that is why he kept zig-zagging behind Fisichella, trying to get race control's attention.

The bottom line is that if Renault chooses to challenge this call, FIA will shift the blame onto the entire team as it was their responsibility to let Fisi know that their pit stop is in use. These is no rule which states that a driver must come into the pits after SC had been deployed. Fisi chould've stayed out an extra lap...

manchild · Post 20 Oct 2005, 19:08

Sporting regulations are as much detailed and specific as technical regulations and you can't condemn someone without any evidence and based on presumptions.

That is based on facts as much as it would be saying that Kimi was deliberately driving too fast behind Fisichella during that pit entry just to make Fisichella appear deliberately too slow… No evidence at all.

Are you sure that for example Fisichella’s gearbox didn’t malfunction during pit entry?

RH1300S · Post 20 Oct 2005, 19:14

Gentlemen - the way I see it, no question Fisi was being tactical, other teams have done so in the past.

The FIA have issued a rule clarification to put a stop to this - the clarification was just before the Chinese GP, so Fisi broke the rules and was punished - simple really. Does not matter who did what in the past - the rule is for now.

f1.redbaron · Post 20 Oct 2005, 21:24

manchild wrote:
Are you sure that for example Fisichella’s gearbox didn’t malfunction during pit entry?

I was expecting a stronger argument than that.

Why can I be sure that Fisichella didn't have any problems? Simple - Renault didn't protest the penalty. If Fisichella was really experiencing mechanical problems, surely it would've appeared on Renault's telemetry. Then, all Renault had to do was to download all the relevant info, and forward it to FIA.

Also, you mentioned that Kimi could've been driving too fast behind Fisichella. Well, that also makes little sense, as there is no speed limit at that part of the track. Had those been race conditions, Fisichella would've been driving as fast as he could right up until the section where there is a limit on how fast a driver can go.

Hudsonhawk · Post 22 Oct 2005, 15:39

I don't know why you are explaining your thoughts on Lawyers ? You used the "lawyer" phrase to convey your bias toward Renault!! Right ? Of course that's right, you wrote it in black and white. Though what you are missing, is that this analogy you have selected, in fact, paints a vivid picture of your current position and views. Your views are "As Long as its your team, its acceptable and you will defend it!!" Seems very straight forward!! I rest my case your honour.

Keep defending Barricello.....doh....sorry I mean Fisi.....I got a little confused ??