Chinese GP 2005

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
wowf1
wowf1
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Joined: 05 Jan 2004, 13:53
Location: Brunel University, England

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manchild wrote: [/quote]Senna was “mother Teresa” compared to Schuey. What he did to Prost was a revenge for what Prost has done to him.
[quote]

Since when did Mother Teresa ever want revenge? You'd think being Mother Teresa and wanting revenge is a slight contradiction in terms...would you not manchild?

My opinion of the video where MS makes the mistake is that at the next corner, MS knows that Hill is close behind, so he tries to cover his line. He probably hoped that Hill would use his common sense and back off a little, but instead Hill blazed in and put them both out.

With the other vids, it's very difficult to tell who did what. It looks at first as though MS turns in on them, but if you watch Hill(?)/Villeneuve closely, they go straight on and never look like they are going to turn in!

rob[/quote]

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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We can flog this to death. What happened between Shu and Villeneuve happened many years ago. And I believe that almost everyone are now fixed on their opinions, and no argument or video will alter that.
Please, let's just agree that we disagree.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Dave I agree but since I've written this after I've read wowf1 post and before you posted your post I have to post it rather to delete all I’ve written.
wowf1 wrote:Since when did Mother Teresa ever want revenge? You'd think being Mother Teresa and wanting revenge is a slight contradiction in terms...would you not manchild?

My opinion of the video where MS makes the mistake is that at the next corner, MS knows that Hill is close behind, so he tries to cover his line. He probably hoped that Hill would use his common sense and back off a little, but instead Hill blazed in and put them both out.

With the other vids, it's very difficult to tell who did what. It looks at first as though MS turns in on them, but if you watch Hill(?)/Villeneuve closely, they go straight on and never look like they are going to turn in!

rob
Name of Mother Teresa is commonly used to describe a good person so I used it to emphasize that Senna and Schumacher are completely different drivers. Senna was fighting for the win by driving too fast if necessary risking his own life while Schumacher was using all means to get the victory which often included deliberate collisions with opposition, use of illegal technicalities on car etc.

If MS was driving non-CF chassis he’d have at least 4 WC titles less! Chassis made of steel pipes and covered with aluminum were dangerous but they also enabled that no driver ever thought to deliberately collide with another car and “win” in that fashion because it usually meant serious injuries or death.

Regarding Hill/Villeneuve accidents, those two especially the second one are unquestionable. You must be joking trying to blame Villeneuve for accident! His own team members condemned Schumacher for that including Agnelli family (FIAT/Ferrari owners), his Brother and Ferrari fans too including worldwide media (not to mention FIA’s disqualification).

I already explained and if you don’t believe me you can read carefully the FIA sporting regulations – when a following car passes/reaches 50% of length of the car in the lead than car in the lead looses the right to chose trajectory. Hill reached 50% of MS car before MS started pushing Hill to wall.

Villeneuve had not just reached half of his car before the turn but got in front of him for 50% and than MS hit Villeneuve’s sidepods (that is middle of the car). On board video shows that MS realized that Villeneuve had passed – turned his wheel a bit left and than when Villeneuve got in front MS turns right, smashes into Williams and continues to turn the wheel right even though the impact already occurred. Villeneuve as in the lead when MS hit him even though many think that he was just trying to pass MS. That was as dirty as nothing ever seen in F1 before. It is absolutely unquestionable even if it wasn’t already seen pattern of MS behavior.

He has repeated the same behavior this season - 2005 on Mark Webber. Every time a driver passes him from inside Schumacher smashes into that car just as if he can’t handle the truth.

In 1993 he became WC by doing the same thing to Mika, in 1994 and 1995 he smashed Damon, and in 1997 he tried the same thing with Jacques. Every time he has a slower car he starts preventing opposition from overtaking him on any cost. In 1992 Mansell had overtook Senna so many times they battled greatly in Monaco but Senna never smashed into Mansell just to shake off his frustration which is what Schumacher was doing. How many times could have Gilles smash Arnoux and end his race during those several laps?

No one has ever made so many illegal moves like MS did. No champion was ever disqualified for the season and I think that no driver ever was too. He has quantity of titles but no means to prevent people from finding him dirtiest driver ever. You might not like what I’m saying but that is the beauty of free world – I can think about MS what I like including millions of F1 fans worldwide and his statistics, trophies or money can’t erase what history will say about him.

Fact that his moves are still debated after so many years just confirm of what magnitude they were.

He has all the records and all the money but no respect of general population of F1 fans as true champions like Senna does. To be honest I wasn’t Senna’s fan but I never hated or disrespected him because there was no reason for it. I’ve highly respected him, admired him just as I did with all other drivers.

When MS showed up in F1 it was like when barbarians enter the Rome (it still is). They looted the Rome just like MS looted F1 but none of them will go into history as pure – victories will be mentioned as statistics but moral and culture will not because in both cases they didn't exist.

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Scuderia_Russ
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
Location: Motorsport Valley, England.

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manchild wrote:He has repeated the same behavior this season - 2005 on Mark Webber. Every time a driver passes him from inside Schumacher smashes into that car just as if he can’t handle the truth..
Racing incident. Weber went so far on the inside that there was no way for Schu to see him in his mirror!

manchild wrote:In 1993 he became WC by doing the same thing to Mika,
Prost was W.C. in '93, and when did he make contact with Mika during that year?
manchild wrote:in 1994 and 1995 he smashed Damon,
I think you'll find that Damon rammed Schumacher off on two occasions during '95. Monza and Silverstone.
manchild wrote:He has quantity of titles but no means to prevent people from finding him dirtiest driver ever.
Like you say this is of course a matter of opinion.
manchild wrote: To be honest I wasn’t Senna’s fan but I never hated or disrespected him because there was no reason for it.

Not even after ramming Prost off and forcing Schumacher off in '92? Sounds like double standards to me Manchild. I hope you're not going to try to tell us that Senna's actions were less severe than Schueys because he 'didn't really mean to do it' or something.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Sorry for 1993, I was thinking on 1990…
Scuderia_Russ wrote:Racing incident. Weber went so far on the inside that there was no way for Schu to see him in his mirror!
That is my point Schumacher never looks at the mirror (which doesn’t make him less guilty for accidents). It was racing incident as much as the one from 1994 or some other. What about first race in 2005 – he forced Heidfeld off track and than fortunately got smashed by his car?
manchild wrote:He has quantity of titles but no means to prevent people from finding him dirtiest driver ever.
Like you say this is of course a matter of opinion. I agree – different people different opinions.
manchild wrote: To be honest I wasn’t Senna’s fan but I never hated or disrespected him because there was no reason for it.
Scuderia_Russ wrote:Not even after ramming Prost off and forcing Schumacher off in '92? Sounds like double standards to me Manchild. I hope you're not going to try to tell us that Senna's actions were less severe than Schueys because he 'didn't really mean to do it' or something.
Prost and Senna accidents were 1 on 1 kind of thing it was personal thing between two drivers and current/former teammates. It wasn’t that Prost or Senna would have done that to anyone who tried to passed them. I think I wrote this – Senna said to Prost before the race that he’ll both went off if Prost tries to cuts him off. What two of them had was unique thing and not general practice that marked their careers.

All drivers have sometimes forced other drivers off but it is a huge difference if someone does that like MS did during fights for the title almost year after year – 1990, 1994, 1995, and 1997. That is pattern. When you mention 1992 I assume you think about Hungarian GP? Anyway in 1992 Schumacher wasn’t title contender and neither was Senna.
Last edited by manchild on 03 Nov 2005, 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

jaslfc
jaslfc
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Joined: 19 Nov 2004, 13:47

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alright .. enough is enough. personally i dont agree with u manchild coz i am a shumy fan.. but fine u are allowed ur opinion . but guys dont go on about this topic.

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Scuderia_Russ
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Location: Motorsport Valley, England.

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manchild wrote: MS did during fights for the title almost year after year – 1990, 1994, 1995, and 1997. That is pattern. When you mention 1992 I assume you think about Hungarian GP?
Schumacher wasn't in F1 until Spa '91 and who did he ram off in '95 to win the title? Like I've already said, Hill rammed Schumacher off on two separate occasions that year. It's already been established that '94 was a racing incident (at best) otherwise Schumacher would have been penalised.

manchild wrote:Anyway in 1992 Schumacher wasn’t title contender and neither was Senna.
So this makes it ok?
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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I'd really like to end this...

In 1990 MS became world champion in F3 after hitting Mika's car.
Senna - MS accident was one of hundreds similar accidents in F1 history - an accident between two drivers who are not fighting for title. Only in this season MS caused at least 3 such incidents - Heidfeld, Webber, Albers...