2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

[lio007]

https://streamable.com/4oh8k

Verstappen is a smart cookie. That, and flat out dirty. Watch that video a couple of times, and tell me why he doesn't try going a little bit straight (cutting the exit of the chicane a little more). Ding ding ! If he does that, he'll be a sitting duck on the straight, since Raikonen has momentum coming out. The reason behind what he did was to block Raikkonen, compromising his exit to prevent him from overtaking. 5 seconds for this is basically getting off scot free.

He has nothing to lose at the moment. When the season had started, it did look for a while that it could be a 3 way title fight and it looked like it would be Ricciardo who would be carrying the honours for Red Bull. He's probably the most talented kid I've seen since Schumacher but he's not as calculated as him. Dirty, yes. Calculated, no.

On ORF Wurz mentioned that:
# he picked up some astro turf and he also slided into RAI a little bit, caused by the pickup
# Max tried to avoid the collision, he was on full steering wheel lock

[Shrieker]

On ORF Wurz mentioned that:
# he picked up some astro turf and he also slided into RAI a little bit, caused by the pickup
# Max tried to avoid the collision, he was on full steering wheel lock

A car has other controls besides the steering wheel. It's fully the driver's responsibility to ensure that he rejoins in a safe manner after leaving the track. He should've been careful (read:slower) rejoining so he wouldn't squeeze Kimi and then have contact with him. But of course he did not do that, since that would almost certainly mean conceding the place.

[iotar__]

On ORF Wurz mentioned that:
# he picked up some astro turf and he also slided into RAI a little bit, caused by the pickup
# Max tried to avoid the collision, he was on full steering wheel lock

He didn't - he outbraked himself, cut the corner knowing fully well the car is right behind him to avoid overtake (that would be enough for not avoiding anything), came back on the track knowing fully well the car is right behind him, blocking it (to avoid overtake), causing collision and avoiding consequences of his f.. up. No 50/50, no defending of any kind, no racing, straight up f.. up by one driver, That's 10 if it's no rules F1 and a drive through in normal one.

Vettel on the other hand did classic Verstappen sliding outside across the corner overtake through colision (TM) (see vs Riccardo Hungary or vs Hamilton earlier in '18). Clear penalty. Or:

"Seb tried to get up the inside, and it was a reasonable move," This is a person setting the rules of motoracing, can you believe that ?! No it was not reasonable at all, it was not 50/50 it was not a good attempt at all, it was 90% chances of colision move. In any normal sport Whiting would have been fired long time ago. Imagine Rosberg doing reasonable move to FIA's favourite driver 2 seasons ago, drive-through after 1 millisecond.

[hollus]

On the Versappen-Raikkonen incident, I find it ironic that Verstappen got the penalty for "not rejoining safely" but, somehow, not anyting for "causing a collision", "forcing a driver off the track" or "gaining an advantage". At least one of those three could have been easily added. Is there a rule against handing in two penalties for the same maneuver?

[Jolle]

On ORF Wurz mentioned that:
# he picked up some astro turf and he also slided into RAI a little bit, caused by the pickup
# Max tried to avoid the collision, he was on full steering wheel lock

He didn't - he outbraked himself, cut the corner knowing fully well the car is right behind him to avoid overtake (that would be enough for not avoiding anything), came back on the track knowing fully well the car is right behind him, blocking it (to avoid overtake), causing collision and avoiding consequences of his f.. up. No 50/50, no defending of any kind, no racing, straight up f.. up by one driver, That's 10 if it's no rules F1 and a drive through in normal one.

Vettel on the other hand did classic Verstappen sliding outside across the corner overtake through colision (TM) (see vs Riccardo Hungary or vs Hamilton earlier in '18). Clear penalty. Or:

"Seb tried to get up the inside, and it was a reasonable move," This is a person setting the rules of motoracing, can you believe that ?! No it was not reasonable at all, it was not 50/50 it was not a good attempt at all, it was 90% chances of colision move. In any normal sport Whiting would have been fired long time ago. Imagine Rosberg doing reasonable move to FIA's favourite driver 2 seasons ago, drive-through after 1 millisecond.

When Alonso did the same more at the busstop chicane at Spa as Verstappen did at Raikkonen, no penalty and "yeah, but he had no place to go" replies here on this forum. Like I was insane to question Alonso's actions.... I imagine if, with Vettel and Verstappen it would have been the other way round, there would be a penalty and people here would demand a race ban.

Last few years Vettel drove into a competitor on purpose, said the racing director he could F off multiple times, hit about everybody on track within two seasons. Verstappen is a sweetheart compared to him.

[GPR-A]

Can anyone confirm if the team informed Vettel of Verstappen's 5 second penalty, before he collided? May be that would have calmed him and wait for a right opportunity to pull a pass.

[bonjon1979]

Can anyone confirm if the team informed Vettel of Verstappen's 5 second penalty, before he collided? May be that would have calmed him and wait for a right opportunity to pull a pass.

Vettel said in his interview that he knew but to be frank he had to go for it. He was losing too much behind and if he wants to win the championship he’s got to go for the win. I think people are being a bit harsh on him because to be frank if doesn’t take risks he’s not gonna make up points.

[alexx_88]

With Vettel it's not just about the points he lost mathematically, but more about the mental momentum he could've gained over the summer. He had, by far, the best car, capable of getting the win in all the races after Austria until Singapore. The fact that somehow he managed to win races where Vettel was the clear favorite gave Hamilton and Mercedes the mental advantage in the battle. By delivering then, Vettel would've put tremendous pressure on Mercedes and Hamilton, forcing them to make mistakes, the same thing that's happening now, but in reverse.

Ferrari lost it because they didn't capitalize on the chances they had. We've only seen Vettel's mistakes, but we can't know how he was affected by the atmosphere and the things that were being said inside the team. I'm not a Vettel fan by any margin and I think he has serious chinks in what should be a 4xWDC armor, but his mistakes are an expression of all the things that go on at Ferrari, not just his skills and resilience.

[alexx_88]

I think people are being a bit harsh on him because to be frank if doesn’t take risks he’s not gonna make up points.

True, but his percentage when taking risks is abysmal. To be honest, I can't remember the last time when he took a risk and we said "wow, that's brave and he pulled it off".

[Wynters]

When Alonso did the same more at the busstop chicane at Spa as Verstappen did at Raikkonen, no penalty and "yeah, but he had no place to go" replies here on this forum. Like I was insane to question Alonso's actions....

Alonso very nearly made the corner, only had all four wheels off for a single car length, bounced over an orange kerb on the apex of the next turn and applied so much steering lock his steering wheel was upside down until after Magnusson had tucked in behind.

Verstappen missed the corner almost entirely (he's already off before he's managed to turn even 45 degrees), stays off for more than four car lengths, has no kerb launching his car into the air and as soon as Kimi is alongside him, he winds off nearly half his steering lock.

The incidents are night and day.

Vettel to blame for the later one though and, apart from that rush of blood to the head, Verstappen drove a solid race. If he'd had more of laps 2-53 and less of lap 1 throughout the whole season he'd be within touching distance of Vettel in the WDC, despite having to battle Renault's unreliability for the whole season.

As for Vettels's risktaking in this race, sure, he had to pass Verstappen and get after the Mercs whilst he was on the faster tyre and could challenge them but he sure knows how to pick a terrible spot for an overtake. He said after the race that he'd managed to overtake the whole of the rest of the field without incident but the whole of the rest of the field has no interest in battling him because they will lose time. The minute he comes up to someone he can't cruise by he doesn't seem to adjust his approach. When I think about some of the great overtakes he's made in the past it's...well, confusing.

[Jolle]

When Alonso did the same more at the busstop chicane at Spa as Verstappen did at Raikkonen, no penalty and "yeah, but he had no place to go" replies here on this forum. Like I was insane to question Alonso's actions....

Alonso very nearly made the corner, only had all four wheels off for a single car length, bounced over an orange kerb on the apex of the next turn and applied so much steering lock his steering wheel was upside down until after Magnusson had tucked in behind.

Verstappen missed the corner almost entirely (he's already off before he's managed to turn even 45 degrees), stays off four more than four car lengths, has no kerb launching his car into the air and as soon as Kimi is alongside him, he winds off nearly half his steering lock.

The incidents are night and day.

Vettel to blame for the later one though and, apart from that rush of blood to the head, Verstappen drove a solid race. If he'd had more of laps 2-53 and less of lap 1 throughout the whole season he'd be within touching distance of Vettel in the WDC, despite having to battle Renault's unreliability for the whole season.

As for Vettels's risktaking in this race, sure, he had to pass Verstappen and get after the Mercs whilst he was on the faster tyre and could challenge them but he sure knows how to pick a terrible spot for an overtake. He said after the race that he'd managed to overtake the whole of the rest of the field without incident but the whole of the rest of the field has no interest in battling him because they will lose time. The minute he comes up to someone he can't cruise by he doesn't seem to adjust his approach. When I think about some of the great overtakes he's made in the past it's...well, confusing.

The rule is very simple, if you go off track, even for a car length, you have to make sure to join the track in a safe manor. Verstappen didn’t and got a penalty. Fair. Alonso didn’t And didn’t get a penalty. In China Verstappen went for a gap at Vettel very similar to this race, got a 10 second penalty, fair. Vettel goes for a gap, collides, no further action.

[foxmulder_ms]

Ferrari implosion complete.

Vestappen deserved a more severe penalty. He tried to run Rai off the circuit coming himself off the circuit. He did not deserve that podium. Shame.

Magnussen is a terrible racer.

Ric drove very nicely. My driver of the day together with Lewis.

[iotar__]

When Alonso did the same more at the busstop chicane at Spa as Verstappen did at Raikkonen, no penalty and "yeah, but he had no place to go" replies here on this forum. Like I was insane to question Alonso's actions....

Alonso very nearly made the corner, only had all four wheels off for a single car length, bounced over an orange kerb on the apex of the next turn and applied so much steering lock his steering wheel was upside down until after Magnusson had tucked in behind.

Verstappen missed the corner almost entirely (he's already off before he's managed to turn even 45 degrees), stays off four more than four car lengths, has no kerb launching his car into the air and as soon as Kimi is alongside him, he winds off nearly half his steering lock.

The incidents are night and day.

Vettel to blame for the later one though and, apart from that rush of blood to the head, Verstappen drove a solid race. If he'd had more of laps 2-53 and less of lap 1 throughout the whole season he'd be within touching distance of Vettel in the WDC, despite having to battle Renault's unreliability for the whole season.

No, they're not identical but not that far. Verstappen cut was clearer, he moved farther outside as pointed out. Alonso's move was spiteful, pointless and penalty worthy too in Q conditions.

Saying that Verstappen was trying to avoid anything is 100% absurd though. He had control, and made every choice that led to this collision, watch onboard, he's steering the damn car.

See, told you, warned you, but did anyone listen? Did anyone care ? Alright... Magnussen did this too late blocking move again. Not his fault, if you can get away with it you go for Verstappen's maneuver (TM), sod chances of a crash, sod safety.

It's FIA's fault for ignoring this type of driving in the previous races and establishing random and broken rules. They of course know they're not handling it well - so they investigate both and pretend nothing happened. Brilliant. They know they cheated in Baku so they have to plough through with their own BS.

[Edax]

https://streamable.com/4oh8k

Verstappen is a smart cookie. That, and flat out dirty. Watch that video a couple of times, and tell me why he doesn't try going a little bit straight (cutting the exit of the chicane a little more). Ding ding ! If he does that, he'll be a sitting duck on the straight, since Raikonen has momentum coming out. The reason behind what he did was to block Raikkonen, compromising his exit to prevent him from overtaking. 5 seconds for this is basically getting off scot free.

He has nothing to lose at the moment. When the season had started, it did look for a while that it could be a 3 way title fight and it looked like it would be Ricciardo who would be carrying the honours for Red Bull. He's probably the most talented kid I've seen since Schumacher but he's not as calculated as him. Dirty, yes. Calculated, no.

But it is effective. Let’s be honest. Without this hard defending VES would never have become third in this race. And Ricciardo would never have become 4th. So he secured 9 additional points and a podium for RB.

The points are maybe not that important as RB has the 3rd spot locked up. But RB needs the podia to stay relevant, to show that they are in the fight with Ferrari and Merc, and not simply the best of the midfield.

The RB is the third fastest car on the track. To make the podium something needs to happen, or they have to make something happen. His mission is very simple try to jump the cars in front and secure a top three spot by any means possible. That is why he also was not trying something crazy with Bottas, 3rd was good enough. I think that is something he learned in the past year, knowing when to consolidate.

He may not win the fair play cup with it, but Ves now has tasted the champaign 7 times this year. Compare that to bottas who is arguably driving the best car in the field, with 8 podia. Or to his teammate, not a shabby driver by any standards, who has only 2 podia.

His driving is like German soccer, it ain’t always pretty, but it is very effective

[LM10]

Can anyone confirm if the team informed Vettel of Verstappen's 5 second penalty, before he collided? May be that would have calmed him and wait for a right opportunity to pull a pass.

Vettel said in his interview that he knew but to be frank he had to go for it. He was losing too much behind and if he wants to win the championship he’s got to go for the win. I think people are being a bit harsh on him because to be frank if doesn’t take risks he’s not gonna make up points.

I agree with you. Though, I think that he needs to improve under pressure. He needs to stay calm and think twice before going for a move. I'm not saying that today's incident was a big one to blame him, but he would have not been under pressure and in a position to overtake Verstappen as soon as possible, if he had not lost all the several points in past in the first place.

As for today's contact, I think that it was a racing incident. Just light understeer and Verstappen had plenty of room left which he could have used to avoid the crash. After that Vettel would have needed to give him back the position. Vettel was more to blame, but Verstappen could have avoided it, in my opinion.