2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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roon
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by roon » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:02 pm

Just read the FIA are requiring Magnussen to give Gunther Steiner a 5-second hug. Stewards truly out of control.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:03 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:04 pm
Wynters wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:55 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:17 am


How does Hamilton end up behind Leclerc ? you've lost me. If the undercut doesn't work then Leclerc cant force Hamilton to pit, so if Hamilton doesn't pit how does he end up behind Leclerc.
Apologies if I wasn't clear. The undercut clearly gave the driver on the road an advantage in the short term but penalised them in the long term on tyre life. It's this balance of benefit/loss that I was referring to.

This was a three car race for the podium positions so Leclerc was available to be used as a pawn to force Mercedes to compromise their strategy in order to prevent him gaining a position on Hamilton and slowing him for a number of the following laps (allowing Vettel to drive off into the distance without any pressure).

Clearly, the undercut was faster as it allowed Vettel to stay ahead of Hamilton, despite the latter having a faster car.

However, having rewatched the relevant portions of the race, I don't think Leclerc had a sufficient traffic window to make it work, so question answered.
Ah ok I'm with you now. Lets say the gap to 4th was big enough and Leclerc could pit and undercut, the only problem with that is, it risks Leclerc undercutting Seb. and that can't possibly be allowed to happen :lol:
And If the gap was there for LeClerc then Hamilton would have used it. It was obvious both Ferrari and Mercedes were just waiting for a gap.

dans79
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by dans79 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:05 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:36 pm
Put simply, this is not racing.
that's just your opinion, and let's just say I strongly disagree.

it's somewhat ironic that the forum "rules" prevent me from fully expressing my opinion! so yeah that's one more instance of rules that are put in place for a reason whether people like them or not!

roon
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by roon » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:15 pm

hollus wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:00 pm
roon wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:45 pm
"He just came back onto the track so dangerous."

-Ayrton Senna
Nice find, if it is real. Source? Race? Context?
No, I'm just poking fun at the absurdity of the situation. This one is real though:

"By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer petition the stewards for time penalties, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win."

-Ayrton Senna

turbof1
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by turbof1 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:17 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:05 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:36 pm
Put simply, this is not racing.
that's just your opinion, and let's just say I strongly disagree.

it's somewhat ironic that the forum "rules" prevent me from fully expressing my opinion! so yeah that's one more instance of rules that are put in place for a reason whether people like them or not!
Aside of the regulations that obviously have to be followed and were correctly applied, people lamenting this took away the action at the end of the race is a valid complaint. 5 seconds was the lowest penalty the stewards could give. Depending on how severe you want to punish someone, that's either too stringent or getting off too easy. If we forget about the regulations for a second, and just apply rationality and logic, should Vettel have been punished? Should he have been punished for creating a dangerous situation, should he have been punished for creating a situation where he would have been overtaken and blocked that from happening in an unreasonable way?

For the record, I'm not taking a stand or opinion here in any way whatsoever. I'm putting forward a possible discussion whether the regulations should allow for more racing in such situations, or should be kept as they are.


btw, you alright there buddy? Seems you got quite the argument there with yourself :lol:
#AeroFrodo

TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:19 pm

You know a lot of the dissent has to do with the fact that Hamilton and Mercedes come out the weekend extending both championship leads while Vettel and Ferrari aren't waiting around for the second part of the season to begin their self immolation.

In and alternate universe, Hamilton unavoidably T bones into Vettel and Leclerc gets his maiden F1 win, Bottas gains in the championship and Ferrari begin the saving face process.

You're welcome.
Countdown to 91: 9 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

saviour stivala
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by saviour stivala » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:21 pm

Ricciardo: “Hamilton blocked me like Vettel blocked him”. What was the difference back than and yesterday?.

TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:32 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:17 pm

For the record, I'm not taking a stand or opinion here in any way whatsoever. I'm putting forward a possible discussion whether the regulations should allow for more racing in such situations, or should be kept as they are.
People are always trying to find the Goldilocks regulation, not too lenient, not too harsh. In this situation the rules as they are were clearly infringed, that's not up for debate. Remarkably some are still debating it. What is debatable is whether these regulations are too hot or too cold going back to my Goldilocks comparison.

One thing's for sure, trying to regulate the one off instances which I think this is a perfect example of, is always a downward spiral. Regulations aren't created to cover for the exceptions. So when something like this happens, the reaction is to take rules out of racing which isn't necessarily the right thing either because... then an event from last year. (when Ocon was trying to unlap himself from Verstappen) The same people arguing for less restrictive racing, are the ones wanting to add restrictions to the sport, with cries of how could someone attempt to un lap himself!?!?

This is all about perspective more than it is about the rules for the people crying about being robbed.

The only two things I want when it comes to rules, is 1) that they are applied equally to everyone and 2) They're enforced to the best of the stewards abilities with consistency throughout the season.
Last edited by TAG on Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Countdown to 91: 9 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

izzy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by izzy » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:32 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:21 pm
Ricciardo: “Hamilton blocked me like Vettel blocked him”. What was the difference back than and yesterday?.
Lol, Danny doesn't want to admit that Lewis didn't actually block him it was a bluff, a feint. A beautiful bit of racecraft that Lewis stitched him up with, so when the stewards looked there was in fact a car's width, so Danny had given it up for nothing 8)

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by sosic2121 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:44 pm

drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:23 pm
OK, I see that you put lots of effort into your answer, and I respect you for that.

Maybe Germany wasn't worth penalty, and Mexico, while he gained lasting advantage by avoiding T1(if let's say Schumacher did that, lots of people would say he did it on porpoise), they are mostly irrelevant.

I will have to check other angles of Monaco incident, since from the angle I saw, it looked to me like intentional blocking/pushing into the wall.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:46 pm

TAG wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:19 pm
You know a lot of the dissent has to do with the fact that Hamilton and Mercedes come out the weekend extending both championship leads
And that's the thing, isn't it? If Vettel and Hamilton were fairly equal points and this happened, people would be more accepting of it. But because Hamilton has opened his lead to 1+ / 2+ DNFs ahead of his teammate / Vettel, they're all up in arms. The usual "game over, man, game over" shouts.

The reality is that there's still a long way to go in this season. A long way.
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zeph
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by zeph » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:04 pm

roon wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:28 am
zeph wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:59 am
If he had simply gone straight once he was back on the track he would have left sufficient room for Hamilton to pass.
He did go straight, that's the problem. Some suggest the Ferrari should have immediately hooked up its front tires right after the grass and turned the car more to the left in order to stay on the left hand side of the track so as not to intersect the racing line. But physics doesn't agree, and physics are being read as a defending move here.
No. Watch the replays and read the Autosport article I linked to. Vettel steers to the right. Understandable, it's what any racing driver would do in that situation, you want to defend your position. And I probably would not have penalized him for that.

But either way, the call is correct. If he was indeed not in control, it would still have been an unsafe re-entry. And if he was in control, it is obtaining an unfair advantage.

But yeah, in the 1980's nobody would have been punished for something like that. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate the rules.

LM10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by LM10 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:09 pm

Michael Schmidt: "All drivers I've asked after the race confirmed Vettel's words: To safely drive back on the track, Vettel needed to choose that line."

All ex-drivers, current drivers (they know the best what Vettel was going through behind the wheel) and even the Sky F1 coverage do have the same opinion. Who don't? Peter Windsor, and obviously the Mercedes team including a part of their fans (not even all of them).

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by GrizzleBoy » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:12 pm

I'm still not understanding how after it has been shown that the stewards carefully inspected the telemetry and unshown camera angles to determine what happened, that people are still going on about this being a travesty?

If the EVIDENCE points to Seb stamping on the throttle and putting the car sideways across the track to block oncoming traffic after rejoining from an off, its a penalty.

You can show me 1000 ex driver quotes, but unless you can show me which ones of them had access to the telemetry data to be able to see the EXACT throttle/brake/steering inputs/when the car was sliding and when it was not, then who cares what they think?

If they don't have the REQUIRED information to make the correct judgement, then their opinions while respected as racing drivers, are moot.

If the evidence shows Seb WAS in control at the moment that he caused an approaching vehicle to have to stamp on the brakes AND leave the track in an Acceleration zone, then its a penalty.

Unless anyone can show me that the telemetry shows something different, then it's a penalty.......

If you want me to take Sebs word after he has a record of literally driving into people, on camera, during an internationally broadcast event and claiming it never happened, over the stewards, well...... Sorry but no.

FrukostScones
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by FrukostScones » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:14 pm

LM10 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:09 pm
Michael Schmidt: "All drivers I've asked after the race confirmed Vettel's words: To safely drive back on the track, Vettel needed to choose that line."

All ex-drivers, current drivers (they know the best what Vettel was going through behind the wheel) and even the Sky F1 coverage do have the same opinion. Who don't? Peter Windsor, and obviously the Mercedes team including a part of their fans (not even all of them).
even if, he still he gained an advantage (and he could have braked and re-entered safely, there was lots of free grass to the left) and it was very dangerous and it was clearly blocking with a massive speed differntial (even if necessary to enter "safely"...)...
( I already saw HAM comitted to the overtake on the live feed onboard, only to HAM's reaction this wasn't a nasty crash).
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important. ...