2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
LM10
LM10
106
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post


User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

LM10 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:06 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcUDGlFDa1w
thanks, yes so this is what i didn't like: at 6:00 Charles' steering wheel is at 90 degrees, then by 6:02 it's only at 45

you can pause and step through with the "," and "." keys

it's not oversteer is it and it's not going over on slip angle either, and not hapless understeer. Badly judged obviously as he hit wing to sidepod instead of wheel to wheel, but basically deliberate

User avatar
El Scorchio
15
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:24 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:53 pm
Oh, so you believe in the ‘he MIGHT not have been fully over the line if we had a hypothetical picture that doesn’t exist rather than the one we DO have which does show him over the line.’ explanation/argument then. Oh dear.

It’s rulings like that which make the stewards a total laughing stock.

I agree the way Leclerc got his penalties was dumb as well, (why did they have to leave it until after the race?) but not forcing him into the pits with a dangerous car was by far dumber. I don’t really believe there’s a big bias toward certain teams, but the stewards do themselves no favours with consistency or error in decision making and keep leaving themselves open to rightful criticism.
I have not seen a picture that's showing outside of the track! On the other hand that picture is not showing that he's within track either.

Obviously, Leclerc drove "dangerous" car. I do not know what was the communication between him and race control, so if he was instructed to pit by race control and he did not, penalty well deserved.

Also while I believe he also deserved 5s penalty for T2 incident, I don't see any significant difference between this incident and the they had in Austria!
There’s a photo on the Italian GP thread which shows all four of Vettel’s wheels beyond the white line if you care to look it up.
It’s hard to know who to blame most for Leclerc whether it’s Ferrari or the stewards. For sure he wouldn’t have seen the damage on the wing but he admitted he was holding his own wing mirror on on the straights, so knowing this he should have taken it upon himself to pit as well.

Agree about this one vs Austria. We need consistency in decision. I’d also add Leclerc’s robust driving in Monza to that as well.

drunkf1fan
drunkf1fan
50
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:34 am

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

Scorpaguy wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:34 am

Please note I was not picking a fight/choosing sides/defending eventualities...just stating facts. However, IMHO, all lucid FIA officials have known that both title fights were effectively over long before Suzuka.
It's got nothing to do with what they know, that's the point. They knew Massa deserved a penalty, they knew locking up wasn't a penalty for Hamilton, they know deliberately hitting another car under a safety car is pretty much a black flag offence and they knew Leclerc deserved penalties.

It's not about what they know, it's about the fans. They don't want to be the ones that fans go "well done for killing the championship" when they apply a decision in race that actively reduces their points and ends the title fight. When Ferrari did that themselves then the stewards/FIA felt free to punish as was frankly necessary and required. This is actually fairly common in other sports in that a ref in a league game with serious title consequences may not give an obvious red card or penalty and give a yellow card or wave away a penalty because it seems too big a thing to do in such a game. It's poor officiating in football and poor in F1.

The difference is in F1 it's not only badly done, it's also frequently in favour of Ferrari. THese days it's more about protecting Ferrari's embarrassment and not hitting them when they are down but back in 2008 it was straight up cheating. Giving Hamilton the penalty for locking up or taking away a win, that was just straight cheating and isn't the same as more recently but still showed the same, wait till they felt the decision could work scenario.

Worth highlighting that after Canada loads of fans started questioning who the stewards were, what their qualifications were and picking on one in particular they didn't really know but turned out everyone within F1 respected the hell out of him iirc when it came to stewarding so was fans randomly picking a guy to hate on. There is a reason why stewards don't want to make the big decisions.

Mandrake
Mandrake
19
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 12:31 am

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:01 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:24 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:53 pm
Oh, so you believe in the ‘he MIGHT not have been fully over the line if we had a hypothetical picture that doesn’t exist rather than the one we DO have which does show him over the line.’ explanation/argument then. Oh dear.

It’s rulings like that which make the stewards a total laughing stock.

I agree the way Leclerc got his penalties was dumb as well, (why did they have to leave it until after the race?) but not forcing him into the pits with a dangerous car was by far dumber. I don’t really believe there’s a big bias toward certain teams, but the stewards do themselves no favours with consistency or error in decision making and keep leaving themselves open to rightful criticism.
I have not seen a picture that's showing outside of the track! On the other hand that picture is not showing that he's within track either.

Obviously, Leclerc drove "dangerous" car. I do not know what was the communication between him and race control, so if he was instructed to pit by race control and he did not, penalty well deserved.

Also while I believe he also deserved 5s penalty for T2 incident, I don't see any significant difference between this incident and the they had in Austria!
There’s a photo on the Italian GP thread which shows all four of Vettel’s wheels beyond the white line if you care to look it up.
There is no photo where you can clearly see if he's outside or not. It's very close for sure, but in those cases you have to apply the benefit of doubt.

There is an interesting Youtube Channel of David Perel, GT3 racing driver. In one of his videos he says it's your obligation as a racing driver to exploit the rules and regulations to the max (ie tracklimits). You gain nothing by sticking to them too carefully, you win by going as close to what is allowed as possible.

User avatar
El Scorchio
15
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

It shows the green outside track limits between the white line and the tyres. That should be enough. Why do you have to apply the benefit of the doubt when there’s a picture showing it? This line of thinking is exactly why the stewarding is so messy and leads to inconsistent decision making. Rules like that should be absolute and black and white. If there’s an angle showing the transgression, then it’s confirmation. In all other sports they don’t look at replays, see an angle which proves a decision and then go ‘ah yes from this angle it’s a touchdown or LBW or out (or whatever) but from an angle we don’t have, there’s a chance it might not be. What a load of trash.

Like I said, I don’t believe there’s a general bias toward any one team, but if that’s not a Ferrari at Monza then it’s a penalty every day of the week and twice on sundays.

‘You win by going as close to what is allowed as possible’ not beyond what is allowed. Again, I don’t put this on Vettel and I don’t think he intended to leave the track but he did, and it’s up to the stewards to pick it up and apply the rules that THEY made. But they bottled it. Just like they’ve historically bottled tonnes of decisions when they impact top teams and have possible championship implications.

User avatar
NathanOlder
152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

Renault have been disqualified from the race!
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS4.

User avatar
F1T
Administrative bot
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:55 pm

Renault disqualified from Japanese GP due to illegal driver aid

Post

Renault disqualified from Japanese GP due to illegal driver aid

The Renault F1 team have been found guilty of implementing and using an illegal driver aid in their cars. The stewards decided in today's hearing in Geneva that both Renault cars are disqualified from the Japanese GP results.

Image

matt_b
matt_b
2
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:03 am

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

Wait a minute does that give Charles 2 more points therefore Mercedes have to win the constructors again? what a mess

User avatar
MtthsMlw
841
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

matt_b wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:56 pm
Wait a minute does that give Charles 2 more points therefore Mercedes have to win the constructors again? what a mess
By my calculations they are still 1 point clear and mathematically won the WCC.
They are now 177 points clear of Ferrari and the most they could gain in the last 4 races are 176 points.

matt_b
matt_b
2
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:03 am

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

MtthsMlw wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:16 pm
matt_b wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:56 pm
Wait a minute does that give Charles 2 more points therefore Mercedes have to win the constructors again? what a mess
By my calculations they are still 1 point clear and mathematically won the WCC.
They are now 177 points clear of Ferrari and the most they could gain in the last 4 races are 176 points.
Thanks for clearing that up I actually forgot Mercedes needing the fastest lap to secure the constructors was based on Charles getting no penalties post race, so with the disqualification of Renault hes finishes P6 after all #-o

ispano6
ispano6
225
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

Makes you wonder when did Renault start employing this system? Their best points haul of 22 points from 4th and 5th at Monza looks a bit suspicious. Toro Rosso are only 6 points behind now but if Renault had been using that system to their advantage then the Monza result seems to stand out as a result where both cars seem to have had similar "performance".

User avatar
NathanOlder
152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

I'd say Monza is a track that it would help the least, so I dont think Renault were using it back then. Also if someone who moved to Racing Point was the whistle blower, they would have done their appeal in Monza as it would have gained the team 5pts back then. Alright in Japan they gained 6pts by protesting, but theres no way Racing Point could predict a better gain than what happened in Italy. Monza is a track of many straights and time to adjust things like brake bias without rushing and possibly making mistakes. Also the braking zones at Monza are mostly in straight lines, where as Japan has a lot of braking zones in corners. So Brake Bias adjustments done automatically would help more at Suzuka than in Italy. So IMO the Monza car was legal, otherwise Force India would have protest back then.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS4.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
-11
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

matt_b wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:01 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:16 pm
matt_b wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:56 pm
Wait a minute does that give Charles 2 more points therefore Mercedes have to win the constructors again? what a mess
By my calculations they are still 1 point clear and mathematically won the WCC.
They are now 177 points clear of Ferrari and the most they could gain in the last 4 races are 176 points.
Thanks for clearing that up I actually forgot Mercedes needing the fastest lap to secure the constructors was based on Charles getting no penalties post race, so with the disqualification of Renault hes finishes P6 after all #-o
Yes. Lecerc moved-up to sixth + 2 points. while Perez moved-up to P9.

User avatar
Sieper
107
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

Post

So, now the “punishment” for Leclerc is absolutely nill. He took out 1 driver and severely damaged two others and all 3 have a smell of just not caring.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/