2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:32 pm
Lewis did not want to be squeezed one mm in turn 1 and fully squeezed Max in turn 2. How much room was left in T1 left of Lewis and how much right of Max in T2. Besides that Lewis went much deeper into the turn 1 braking. Also there he was more on the attack then Max who was being conservative.
I hope you know where the racing line is in the turn 1? The most ideal line a driver wants, is the racing line and if someone else is taking that, then the next best line is to stay as close to the racing line as possible. Basic common sense. The primary purpose of Lewis going tight on turn 1, is for that same purpose and squeezing Max is a byproduct of that. Because he was side by side in turn 1, he had the right to attack and take the inside line of turn 2, which is available for anyone taking outside line from turn 1, when side by side. Max tried to stop Lewis from taking that line and couldn't control his car and hit Lewis first. The impact of that hit, pushed Lewis' rear out and he tried to control that, which then in turn hit Max. You can keep hanging on to your version, but same is done by every other poster here.

Oleo
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Wynters wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:54 pm
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Long time reader, first time poster, just wanted to counter some of the bs posted here.

Fact 1: Verstappen is a full carlength ahead at the braking zone.
At the 100m board, Hamilton has a part of his car alongside.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 2: At no point during the first corner does Hamilton come fully alongside Verstappen.
Agreed.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 3: Verstappen is on the inside and always ahead.
During Turn 1.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Analysis: Verstappen has the inside line and can dictate the line, being the first corner of the race he should leave a carwidth space on the outside, which he does.
In the immediate aftermath of the rear contact, there is not a carwidth space between Verstappen's left rear and the white line.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 4: The initial contact is at the front between Hamiltons front wing and Verstappens left front tyre, causing Verstappens car to slide a bit and causing the 2nd contact at the rear.
Watching Verstappen's onboard, there is no audio or visual indication of this impact, no marking on Hamilton's front wing endplate and no immediate reaction on the steering wheel from Verstappen. It may also be significant that Verstappen has to take multiple bites which is not indicative of a front impact directly triggering a slide.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 5: Hamilton loses control, with benefit of the doubt this is because of the contact of the rear, although the loss of control is strangely a quarter count after the contact, instead of directly at the contact ( This could be due to break of contact or powerapplication at a wrong timing?)
The pause is not dis-similar to that displayed by Verstappen. Why no commentary to that effect during 'Fact 4'?

Hamilton is travelling in an arc, it's difficult to rule whether the lateral rear impact is the deciding factor in the subsequent loss of control. I find the suggestion that the loss of adhesion is due to the different surface to be equally plausible.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Analysis: Verstappen has maybe a small oversteer of the curb, but corrects this well, he is actually trying to squeeze Hamilton to compromise his next left corner and gain advantage there. Hamilton doesnt want to be squeezed and keeps his line, the cars collide at the front.
Agree about the lines.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Hamilton is misdirecting at the Press conf. he clearly does not leave extra room for Verstappen.
This is a clear misrepresentation of what Hamilton said in the press conference.
"If you’ve seen races before, I always leave Max a lot of space – it’s the smartest thing you can do. But there wasn’t a lot of space to give him space."
Additionally, what drivers did or didn't say at the press conference is irrelevant to an analysis of the event as, best case scenario, witnesses in real time are unreliable. Why include it? And, having included it, why misrepresent it?
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Verstappen being on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line, since he leaves enough space on the outside.
Up until the point of the impact, this is correct and will, therefore, apply to T2 now that Hamilton is in the lead, correct?
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 6: Hamilton has lost control of his car, almost torpedoes Vettel and fully forces Verstappen of the track in the 2nd corner.
'Torpedoes' is yet another use of emotive language, characteristically used to discredit one of the two participants in this event.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Analysis: this should have been investigated by the stewards, telemetry should point out the cause of Hamiltons loss of control.
He neither hit Vettel nor caused Vettel to take evasive action. Why should this be investigated by the Stewards? If the Stewards should investigate all incidents where a loss of control led to a near-contact, why did you not call for a Stewards' investigation of Verstappen losing control and significantly damaging Hamilton's car, possibly contributing to this further loss of control? Again, you present a very clear and deliberate double-standard.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
However this is a racing incident due to 2 drivers claiming the same space at the first corner. If anyone is at fault it is Hamilton, being on the outside and behind and having a better view of Verstappens car then vice versa.
Having agreed it is a racing incident, you then go on to blame Hamilton, despite him being "on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line." Nor do you make any mention of Verstappen steering into Hamilton's right rear as they both try to make the corner nor do you call for a Stewards' investigation into that contact.

Whilst you raise some interesting points, your post is disappointingly undermined by consistent but one sided use of language, manipulation of context and inconsistent standards exclusively applied to one driver.
You are kinda comparing apples and oranges at some points, but you do make some fair points.
- 100 m point: Image
- Yes, during turn 1, I didnt add that, cause I thought it was clear I was talking about turn 1 at that point.
- The question of leaving space is a matter of the lines taken, not the aftermath of contact.
- I cannot help you if you do not see the contact of front wing on front tyre, Verstappen in fact immediately reacts, straightening his steering wheel and even steering slightly to the left on that contact.
- Verstappen has multiple corrections because he first has to correct the front contact, then the rear contact etc.
- There is no comment on a Verstappen pause, cause there is no such significant pause.
- Agreed the different surface is another option, thats still the drivers responsibility, having to anticipate that different surface and not losing control because of it.
- Cause it is misdirection, trying to paint Verstappen as the bad guy. Previous races are irrelevant, he clearly does not leave a lot of space here, nor does he run out of space on the outside. I agree that the PC comments relevance is somewhat lacking, I could have left it out, I just really do not like misdirection.
- That does apply to Hamilton in T2, however the contact during T1 is of influence on the situation in T2. T1 and T2 cannot be compared 1:1.
- Torpedoes is a simple and accurate description of forward motion following a ramming action into a target in a straightline. Torpedoes can in fact miss.
- Its the forcing another driver of the track that should be investigated, not the near contact with Vettel. The near contact is only an indication of loss of control. In fact I think Verstappen, who has shown very good car-control in the past is in control until the contact.
- Hamilton fully missing apex and racing line in T2 is not comparable to Verstappen following Leclerc's and Quali-lines followed by some squeezing in T1.
- I didnt mention the final contact cause it does not seem to have any impact on further events, nor does it cause any damage, thus being irrelevant.
- Your last line is ridiculous. Both drivers are not in the same situation and cannot be treated as such.
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:09 pm
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:54 pm


Yes i agree, Hamilton can push Verstapen wide at corner exit if he is ahead and on the inside, however he completely misses the apex and forces Verstappen off way before corner exit, which makes it a problem for me.


But I bet you have no problem with Max doing it to Charles in Austria ? Max never made the apex and forced Charles off, but I didn't see you jumping to Charles defense in Austria.
You are wrong.
RZS10 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:24 pm
Seems like Oleo did not bother reading the thread properly ... i mentioned the contact at the front and the sequence of events 13 pages ago when i posted the heli cam gif and once again 4 pages back ... lol

His argument of "the driver ahead dictates the line" falls apart the moment Max has his slight oversteer over the curb because at that point he lost control for a split second which initiated the chain of events
I have read the thread, although I do not remember every single post, your point is irrelevant, I posted because still people are posting clear falsehood-oneliners, which I countered with a factlist + some opinion.
I disagree that Max lost control of his car at that point I think his going wide a little bit is very much deliberate squeezing.

Wynters
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:26 pm
- Your last line is ridiculous. Both drivers are not in the same situation and cannot be treated as such.
You taint your analysis by consistently applying different standards and word choices. Your choice of pictures (when there is an aerial view available that includes the 100m board) is also indicative. You've written a polemic, not an attempt at a factual account. That approach, and the line I've quoted, indicate that you are fully comfortable in your bias.

As an example - [Polemic mode engaged]
Hamilton does the right thing by braking later than a overly-cautious Verstappen, leaving the youngster plenty of room to take the racing line whilst skillfully placing his own car alongside. When Verstappen, realising he's under pressure, reacts in a panic, loses the car and blunders out wide (hitting Hamilton, damaging his car and forcing the five-time WDC off the track) the Stewards should have investigated. I'd probably call it a racing incident (although it was clear that Verstappen lacked both the skill and the intent to stop the slide without clumsily clashing with another racer and seemed quite happy to keep his foot planted to the floor knowing Hamilton would pay the penalty) but, equally, I would understand it if the Stewards chose to black-flag him.

Although Verstappen is allowed to take the line he took, the way he lost the rear and kicked it into the Mercedes doesn't sit well with me. He basically torpedoed his rear tyre into the broadside of Hamilton's car, just because he was set to lose out at the next corner. That nearly sent Hamilton into Vettel which would've caused a multi-car pile up that Verstappen would've been solely responsible for.

Just remember Verstappen's attitude to safety the day before. He was quite happy to risk killing fellow drivers just so he could better his (already pole winning) laptime by a couple of tenths. Also remember his comments after his many previous contacts last year. He will never change his approach and he threatened to physically assault the next person who questioned him about it.

Following the impact and being pushed off the track by Verstappen, Hamilton comes back onto the track, skillfully catching his own moment of oversteer as the rear of his car pendulumed (without having to rely on bouncing off other cars), and manages to avoid both both Vettel and Verstappen. However, even though he's now fully ahead and entitled to take whatever line he wants, Verstappen deliberately steers into him, striking the rear right tyre with his front wing (likely trying to inflict a puncture). That contact nudges Hamilton, forcing him onto the grass, and sends Verstappen careening across the grass in a barely controlled fashion. Again, this is something I'd expect the Stewards to investigate. I know they say 'hard racing' but, for me, this was a child throwing yet another tantrum that he didn't get his own way.
[/Polemic mode]

If I wrote the above I would not expect to be taken seriously, regardless of how many times I threw in the word 'Fact'.

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strad
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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@Wynters
Are you Hamilton's press agent? :lol:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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RZS10
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Apparently Oleo doesn't even remember what he posted some time ago ... "Verstappen has maybe a small oversteer of the curb, but corrects this well" ... so he did in fact lose control for a moment (getting oversteer) which changed his path to one that crossed Lewis' initial path, this is why there's contact, but let's assume that his claim that he deliberately went wide to squeeze is true then the contact would be 100% Max' fault because he'd be the one to have made the unexpected change to his line.

No matter the cause, the contact is what made everything that followed happen ... both going wide at turn2 is a direct consequence of what transpired in and after turn1

Ultimately it was a racing incident and both reacted well to keep the car pointing straight and Verstappen could have had a better result with more controlled driving in the latter stages of the race despite being off worse after those two turns.
Wynters wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:19 pm
If I wrote the above I would not expect to be taken seriously, regardless of how many times I threw in the word 'Fact'.
You forgot to write it down as a 'factlist' with 'analysis' thrown in a few times

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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@Oleo

Care to explain where I am wrong, or did you mean you jumped to Charles defence in Austria (which couldn't have happened as you only just registered, unless its just another user name)
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MtthsMlw
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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RZS10
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Their incompetence is staggering ... in Mexico they were insisting that it's more important to make the right decisions than to make them quickly ... but making their mind up almost one week after the race is a tad bit too late ... lmao

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Im pretty sure he did it to a Toro Rosso on lap 1 also.

same place, turn 5 exit.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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You can never paint me with the stick of loving Max and so I say this. Why is lewis on the outside of Max in the first place. It was possible for him to wrap the championship up at this race and yet there he was fighting with Seb on the straight and Max in the corner. The screenie shows there is a nice space for Lewis to slot in to behind Max and ahead of Albon and the Mclarens without resulting in the kaos that followed. If there was grass or kitty litter then Lewis would have backed off much earlier for sure because even if Max is moving him off the road he wouldn't have had the tarmac to run off the road and cause an incident after his re entry.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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carisi2k wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:05 am
You can never paint me with the stick of loving Max and so I say this. Why is lewis on the outside of Max in the first place. It was possible for him to wrap the championship up at this race and yet there he was fighting with Seb on the straight and Max in the corner. The screenie shows there is a nice space for Lewis to slot in to behind Max and ahead of Albon and the Mclarens without resulting in the kaos that followed. If there was grass or kitty litter then Lewis would have backed off much earlier for sure because even if Max is moving him off the road he wouldn't have had the tarmac to run off the road and cause an incident after his re entry.
Because Hamilton, just as any other driver, has the right to fight for positions without clowns like Vettel running him off the side of the straight, or over aggressive idiots like Verstappen crashing into the side of him. Regardless of what you think of any of them. Stop your trolling nonsense

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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If Hamilton didnt fight in to turn 1 like he did, Hamilton would not have won the race. He did the right thing, Its not like he threw the car up the inside from 5 car lengths behind. Dont try a make it seem Hamilton was silly or risking too much.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Yeah he was being silly because the result could have been much different and just like any other driver you have to take in to consideration of the consequences which is something Hamilton is normally pretty good at. I think he was very lucky not to have been given a penalty for the incident and if it had been somebody else other then Max I think he would have been doing a drive through penalty.

In any case it just shows why the FIA needs to get rid of these ashphalt runoff areas and put back in proper deterrants to going off track.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:50 pm
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/119 ... 49056?s=19
FIA race director Michael Masi admitted in yesterdays drivers briefing it was a mistake not to penalize Max Verstappen at Mexico who passed Kevin Magnussen off track during the race.

#AMuS #F1 #USGP

Lol, why didnt they show Black and white flag? after all they r now allowing hard racing :roll: :roll: or is that flag only taken out in convenient situations? =P~

epo
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:53 am
carisi2k wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:05 am
You can never paint me with the stick of loving Max and so I say this. Why is lewis on the outside of Max in the first place. It was possible for him to wrap the championship up at this race and yet there he was fighting with Seb on the straight and Max in the corner. The screenie shows there is a nice space for Lewis to slot in to behind Max and ahead of Albon and the Mclarens without resulting in the kaos that followed. If there was grass or kitty litter then Lewis would have backed off much earlier for sure because even if Max is moving him off the road he wouldn't have had the tarmac to run off the road and cause an incident after his re entry.
Because Hamilton, just as any other driver, has the right to fight for positions without clowns like Vettel running him off the side of the straight, or over aggressive idiots like Verstappen crashing into the side of him. Regardless of what you think of any of them. Stop your trolling nonsense
Wow, just wow, I see only one big troll which is you. Show some respect pretty please. Black flag for you.