2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:33 am
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:54 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:12 pm
Why don’t the FIA just come out and admit that they think Ferrari is cheating but they are outsmarting them and they cannot figure out how!
Do you consider this a bad thing? I do not I love things like this, if they are actually doing it and it is not 100% disallowed. This is the stuff that makes F1 so enthralling
No I just think it’s comical.
We are back to the whole situation where the FIA had to ask Ferrari how their systems worked and then almost take their word for it that they were above board! :lol:
Ferrari would be right to do whatever they are doing. It's up to FIA to stop them from doing what FIA perceives as illegal by implementing right measures, NOT asking Ferrari what they are doing. If their sensors do have a problem and there are small phases where the sensor doesn't detect the fuel/addictives/oil being pushed into the combustion chamber, then that is a FIA problem. I am saying this based on a video that Ted and Rob Smedley made for F1.com, which is what Mercedes and Red Bull believe is the case with Ferrari's engine.

Restomaniac
Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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GPR -A wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:19 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:33 am
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:54 pm


Do you consider this a bad thing? I do not I love things like this, if they are actually doing it and it is not 100% disallowed. This is the stuff that makes F1 so enthralling
No I just think it’s comical.
We are back to the whole situation where the FIA had to ask Ferrari how their systems worked and then almost take their word for it that they were above board! :lol:
Ferrari would be right to do whatever they are doing. It's up to FIA to stop them from doing what FIA perceives as illegal by implementing right measures, NOT asking Ferrari what they are doing. If their sensors do have a problem and there are small phases where the sensor doesn't detect the fuel/addictives/oil being pushed into the combustion chamber, then that is a FIA problem. I am saying this based on a video that Ted and Rob Smedley made for F1.com, which is what Mercedes and Red Bull believe is the case with Ferrari's engine.
Oh please don’t misunderstand me. Good on Ferrari if they can pull the wool over the FIA’s eyes.

I’m making the point that it’s not a good look for the FIA if they are seen to be given the run around by a team because they seem to not understand how they are doing it. Even more so given they had to ask Ferrari ‘how it works?’ last time.

auv
auv
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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Another nice TD. It's going to be a close fight between Ferrari and McLaren cars.

lh13
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:19 am
GPR -A wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:19 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:33 am
No I just think it’s comical.
We are back to the whole situation where the FIA had to ask Ferrari how their systems worked and then almost take their word for it that they were above board! :lol:
Ferrari would be right to do whatever they are doing. It's up to FIA to stop them from doing what FIA perceives as illegal by implementing right measures, NOT asking Ferrari what they are doing. If their sensors do have a problem and there are small phases where the sensor doesn't detect the fuel/addictives/oil being pushed into the combustion chamber, then that is a FIA problem. I am saying this based on a video that Ted and Rob Smedley made for F1.com, which is what Mercedes and Red Bull believe is the case with Ferrari's engine.
Oh please don’t misunderstand me. Good on Ferrari if they can pull the wool over the FIA’s eyes.

I’m making the point that it’s not a good look for the FIA if they are seen to be given the run around by a team because they seem to not understand how they are doing it. Even more so given they had to ask Ferrari ‘how it works?’ last time.
So now the FIA officials have to be smarter than all the engineers on the grid? Give them a break! Engineers working for teams are earning their salaries for a reason.

Restomaniac
Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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lh13 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:34 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:19 am
GPR -A wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:19 am
Ferrari would be right to do whatever they are doing. It's up to FIA to stop them from doing what FIA perceives as illegal by implementing right measures, NOT asking Ferrari what they are doing. If their sensors do have a problem and there are small phases where the sensor doesn't detect the fuel/addictives/oil being pushed into the combustion chamber, then that is a FIA problem. I am saying this based on a video that Ted and Rob Smedley made for F1.com, which is what Mercedes and Red Bull believe is the case with Ferrari's engine.
Oh please don’t misunderstand me. Good on Ferrari if they can pull the wool over the FIA’s eyes.

I’m making the point that it’s not a good look for the FIA if they are seen to be given the run around by a team because they seem to not understand how they are doing it. Even more so given they had to ask Ferrari ‘how it works?’ last time.
So now the FIA officials have to be smarter than all the engineers on the grid? Give them a break! Engineers working for teams are earning their salaries for a reason.
Give them a break? Sorry they are supposed to be in charge. Aren’t they supposed to check and clear what teams can and cannot do? So no I won’t give them a break if they aren’t doing what is their job.

It’s now looking apparent that Ferrari have been up to something for ages. The FIA are firing of TD’s hoping to hit the target. This after not having a Scooby last year.

Oh and BTW this current TD is before this race and could have an effect on it so I feel it is relevant in this thread in case anyone is interested. :wink:

LM10
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:20 am
lh13 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:34 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:19 am
Oh please don’t misunderstand me. Good on Ferrari if they can pull the wool over the FIA’s eyes.

I’m making the point that it’s not a good look for the FIA if they are seen to be given the run around by a team because they seem to not understand how they are doing it. Even more so given they had to ask Ferrari ‘how it works?’ last time.
So now the FIA officials have to be smarter than all the engineers on the grid? Give them a break! Engineers working for teams are earning their salaries for a reason.
Give them a break? Sorry they are supposed to be in charge. Aren’t they supposed to check and clear what teams can and cannot do?

It’s now looking apparent that Ferrari have been up to something for ages. The FIA are firing of TD’s hoping to hit the target. This after not having a Scooby last year.

Oh and BTW this current TD is before this race so I relevant in this thread in case anyone is interested. :wink:
You know, the FIA can think that Ferrari is doing something wrong, just like other teams do as well. If other teams don't understand how Ferrari manages to have a more powerful PU, the FIA won't understand either IF everything with the Ferrari PU looks legal after investigations and TDs. Investigate and be happy when everything complies with the rules - that's all the FIA can do, right?

At some point (after thousand sensors and directives) it will need to be accepted that Ferrari does a better job. It's simple as that.

If the reports are true Mercedes managed to make the biggest performance jump since 2014 with their 2020 prototype PU. Does that mean that they have started cheating now?

Restomaniac
Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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LM10 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:28 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:20 am
lh13 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:34 am


So now the FIA officials have to be smarter than all the engineers on the grid? Give them a break! Engineers working for teams are earning their salaries for a reason.
Give them a break? Sorry they are supposed to be in charge. Aren’t they supposed to check and clear what teams can and cannot do?

It’s now looking apparent that Ferrari have been up to something for ages. The FIA are firing of TD’s hoping to hit the target. This after not having a Scooby last year.

Oh and BTW this current TD is before this race so I relevant in this thread in case anyone is interested. :wink:
You know, the FIA can think that Ferrari is doing something wrong, just like other teams do as well. If other teams don't understand how Ferrari manages to have a more powerful PU, the FIA won't understand either IF everything with the Ferrari PU looks legal after investigations and TDs. Investigate and be happy when everything complies with the rules - that's all the FIA can do, right?

At some point (after thousand sensors and directives) it will need to be accepted that Ferrari does a better job. It's simple as that.

If the reports are true Mercedes managed to make the biggest performance jump since 2014 with their 2020 prototype PU. Does that mean that they have started cheating now?
You did notice that at no point have I had a go at Ferrari right? In fact I’ve praised them on the job they have done. But I guess that doesn’t sit well with your anti-Ferrari world view.......Whatever.

Oh BTW this will be my last response to you on this matter so save your fingers and don’t bother.

Espresso
Espresso
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Technical Directive 35/19

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When I read it well (in the German Auto und Motorsport) it mentions additional Technical Directives are to be released... somewhere I read (can't find the source anymore) about 2 more prior to the Brazil GP....
.
More TD's will be released in the coming weeks, to close all possible (theoretical) loopholes....
Ferrari's competitors seem to think: "If we cannot discover the truth... just shoot with hail, somewhere sometime one of the bullets will hit the bulls eye. And in result the performance advantage of the Ferraris engine would diminish. That would indirectly be an admission of guilt...
Coincidently, after the TD was published, the Scuderia's cars suffered a relative loss of form in qualifying and on race day at the US Grand Prix, fueling speculation that Ferrari had perhaps indeed exploited the fuel flow loophole.

On Wednesday, according to a report from the always well-informed Tobi Grüner from Auto Motor und Sport, the FIA issued another technical directive (TD 38/19), this time addressing the potential illicit use of flammable liquid in an engine's cooling system, insisting that the liquid cannot be used for combustion to increase performance.

The directive also referred to an older provision in the technical regulations which forbids the practice of using oil for fuel in an engine's combustion chambers.
Sidenote:
Only the factory team of Ferrari have this power advantage available. The client teams do not have this power advantage.

Sources:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... tor-trick/
https://f1i.com/news/361468-another-fia ... rrari.html
Last edited by Espresso on Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:53 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Capharol
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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the article of AMuS i already posted .......
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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LM10 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:28 am
At some point (after thousand sensors and directives) it will need to be accepted that Ferrari does a better job. It's simple as that.

If the reports are true Mercedes managed to make the biggest performance jump since 2014 with their 2020 prototype PU. Does that mean that they have started cheating now?
If the FIA can't put fool proof methods to track what they put in words as regulations, then calling any team circumventing those regulations is stupid. This is elite competition at the highest level between teams that possess enormously talented people and expecting them to be "Ethical" and follow the spirit of rules because the regulatory body can't manage to put actionable measures is naive.

For as long as one doesn't get caught, he isn't a thief and can continue to steal and live a dignified social life. The onus is on police to put measures in place, to either safeguard what the thief is stealing OR catch the thief with evidence. Moral positions have no place in this ruthless competition, which is also a huge business.

Regardless of what technical directives FIA circulates, for as long as there is no mechanism to prove someone is breaking the rules, the benefit should always go to the accused perpetrator, who, in the light of lack of evidence, isn't guilty and entitled to do what they are doing. Whether it was Mercedes, now Ferrari OR in future Mercedes again OR Renault OR Honda, simply doesn't matter. Whoever gains advantage while FIA can't prove that the advantage is coming by breaking the rules, it's the "Genius" of those teams.

littlebigcat
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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I don't see why Ferrari or anyone who is fan of them is wound up about these directives. If they aren't doing anything against the rules then their rivals are just spending resources researching illegal loopholes.

That is a competitive advantage they have both monetarily and psychologically.

But you know if they are going against the rules, fair and square, thats F1 its all about teetering on the edge

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RZS10
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Re: Technical Directive 35/19

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Espresso wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:31 am
somewhere I read (can't find the source anymore) about 2 more prior to the Brazil GP....
Since they're probably numbered in ascending order and the TD from Austin was 35/19 and this one is 38/19 it's only fair to assume that there has also been 36/19 and 37/19 sometime between the races...
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dans79
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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LM10 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:28 am
At some point (after thousand sensors and directives) it will need to be accepted that Ferrari does a better job. It's simple as that.
I don't think any of the other teams has a problem with accepting that Ferrari has done a better job.

But every quote I can recall from an unnamed team member, is something along the lines of calculations suggest the things they've seen in GPS data shouldn't be possible.

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SiLo
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Re: 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 15-17 November

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People banging on about the FIA here... All they can do is check that the rules are not being broken, and to do that they need to understand how everything works at a basic level. They can ask what each part does and check it for infringements, but they likely aren't going to be checking entire systems that might be designed in specific ways to gain an advantage. They aren't going to go to Ferrari and say "how have you got such an advantage?". They will ask to see the engine design, look at it and they either figure it out themselves or they don't.

If they don't Ferrari can keep running what they are and until someone gets solid proof they are doing something dodgy they can't really protest either.
Felipe Baby!

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Wouter
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Re: Technical Directive 35/19

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:33 pm
Espresso wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:31 am
somewhere I read (can't find the source anymore) about 2 more prior to the Brazil GP....
Since they're probably numbered in ascending order and the TD from Austin was 35/19 and this one is 38/19 it's only fair to assume that there has also been 36/19 and 37/19 sometime between the races...
I read it too that there will be another TD between now and somewhere before the qualification
and possibly another one before the race.