2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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dren
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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From what I've read, the Australian fires are indeed man made; there have been lots of arrests for arson. Controlled brush burning is no longer allowed, similar to California in the USA. Both are places that historically have had fire issues, and both places used to control burn brush to minimize fires. Now that controlled burning is 'bad', we have devastating fires. I was out in Wyoming last summer and saw thousands of brush piles set for controlled burning in the winter. They don't seem to have wildfire issues. I'm also not convinced that the arsonists in Australia aren't part of the green movement, but that's just a thought.

I hope F1 can kick off in March in Australia like it always does. It's such a pretty place.
Honda!

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JRindt
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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dren wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:40 pm
TAG wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:09 pm
I'm not a scientist, I have read the data which if you had looked into as well, does without a shadow of a doubt show the current rise of CO2 is a human creation.
Perhaps it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, CO2 is not a pollutant. It's comical to think otherwise, even at the extremely minute quantities that it exists in the air. My trees don't seem to mind. You might want to think twice before you crack that next beer.
Water ain’t poison as well... But if you drink 8 litres at a time, you will die. It’s not the chemical itself, that’s the problem. It’s the quantity. #-o

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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dren wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:40 pm
TAG wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:09 pm
I'm not a scientist, I have read the data which if you had looked into as well, does without a shadow of a doubt show the current rise of CO2 is a human creation.
Perhaps it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, CO2 is not a pollutant. It's comical to think otherwise, even at the extremely minute quantities that it exists in the air. My trees don't seem to mind. You might want to think twice before you crack that next beer.
The CO2 in beer is carbon-neutral. It's made by the yeast from sugars that the plant originally made using CO2 from the atmosphere. Likewise bread (the holes in bread aren't "air holes", they're CO2 holes). Likewise the kilogram that each of us breathes out each day - it comes from our food and is part of the carbon cycle.

This called "balance" and is good. Adding out-of-balance CO2 (i.e. from fossil fuels) is the problem.

As for CO2 being a pollutant. Try standing in a room with an atmosphere of 10% CO2 and see how you do. It's not actually toxic to humans but it'll still kill you. :lol:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Phil
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Maybe the solution is far simpler, in that, to tackle man made CO2, they (we) should grow more trees (instead of cutting them all down).
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3jawchuck
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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Phil wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:53 pm
Maybe the solution is far simpler, in that, to tackle man made CO2, they (we) should grow more trees (instead of cutting them all down).
Trees won't solve the problem caused by burning hydrocarbons pulled from the ground. To even try to offset the world's carbon production would require entire forests to be planted every year.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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3jawchuck wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:56 pm
Phil wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:53 pm
Maybe the solution is far simpler, in that, to tackle man made CO2, they (we) should grow more trees (instead of cutting them all down).
Trees won't solve the problem caused by burning hydrocarbons pulled from the ground. To even try to offset the world's carbon production would require entire forests to be planted every year.
And more trees more fires more...
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:32 pm
3jawchuck wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:56 pm
Phil wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:53 pm
Maybe the solution is far simpler, in that, to tackle man made CO2, they (we) should grow more trees (instead of cutting them all down).
Trees won't solve the problem caused by burning hydrocarbons pulled from the ground. To even try to offset the world's carbon production would require entire forests to be planted every year.
And more trees more fires more...
Depends on forestry management. Part of the problem has been that money has been pulled from forestry management and the result is the fires we've been seeing in recent years.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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dren wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:40 pm
TAG wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:09 pm
I'm not a scientist, I have read the data which if you had looked into as well, does without a shadow of a doubt show the current rise of CO2 is a human creation.
Perhaps it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, CO2 is not a pollutant. It's comical to think otherwise, even at the extremely minute quantities that it exists in the air. My trees don't seem to mind. You might want to think twice before you crack that next beer.
On a lighter note, I'm reminded of this from a few years ago:


:lol: :lol:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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Cant find it right now (I did google) but I am sure I read somewhere that it was found that diverting the exhaust from the heating generators into a greenhouse increased production and growth. (Co2 I think from natural gas not petroleum, and I assume keep people out lol)
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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CO2 is needed for plant growth, yes. But it is not a case of "keep adding CO2 and keep getting better results". For one thing, you need to add other nutrients too. For crop species, nitrogen is supplied by fertiliser which of course makes the crop more expensive, but away from fields nitrogen is a limiting factor in plant growth because most plants grow in soils that don't have sufficient nitrogen anyway. These plants won't "benefit" from higher CO2 levels. Oh, and you need more water too, because in order for the CO2 to be used in plant growth, you need water along with the nitrogen (and other things).

Also, whilst crop species grow better with increased CO2, the level of human-required nutrients in those crops decreases to the point that people relying on those crops as a staple food will be malnourished. Protein levels are reduced (protein requires nitrogen and as already noted, nitrogen deficiency is a problem anyway). Essential minerals such as iron and zinc are also available in lower concentrations. In countries that already have high anaemia levels, the problem will be made worse by increased CO2 in the atmosphere. Over a billion people already suffer from anaemia - that number will increase.

The oh-so-simple argument that "plants need CO2 so it's all ok" really does fall apart when the science is looked at. Of course, that's the same for many things where overly simple "sound bites" are used as defence.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:17 am
CO2 is needed for plant growth, yes. But it is not a case of "keep adding CO2 and keep getting better results". For one thing, you need to add other nutrients too. For crop species, nitrogen is supplied by fertiliser which of course makes the crop more expensive, but away from fields nitrogen is a limiting factor in plant growth because most plants grow in soils that don't have sufficient nitrogen anyway. These plants won't "benefit" from higher CO2 levels. Oh, and you need more water too, because in order for the CO2 to be used in plant growth, you need water along with the nitrogen (and other things).
Also, whilst crop species grow better with increased CO2, the level of human-required nutrients in those crops decreases to the point that people relying on those crops as a staple food will be malnourished. Protein levels are reduced (protein requires nitrogen and as already noted, nitrogen deficiency is a problem anyway). Essential minerals such as iron and zinc are also available in lower concentrations. In countries that already have high anaemia levels, the problem will be made worse by increased CO2 in the atmosphere. Over a billion people already suffer from anaemia - that number will increase.
The oh-so-simple argument that "plants need CO2 so it's all ok" really does fall apart when the science is looked at. Of course, that's the same for many things where overly simple "sound bites" are used as defence.
what a bunch of condescending and crooked greenist propaganda !

today's CO2 level keeps alive 2 billion people who otherwise wouldn't be here
yes farmers of course support it with nitrogenous growth driver that we call fertiliser and with water
but CO2 is the key growth driver in plants - and it is free to all worldwide
plant growth ie nutrition is the driver of human fertility ie population growth

water is a pressing issue - billions live on food grown using unsustainable water supplies pumped from below ground

btw
greenhouses use a CO2 level of 1100 ppm - production rising in proportion
CO2 level in some airliner cabins overnight higher still - they turn down aircon refresh rate to stretch range
the IAM at Farnborough told me that in some passengers this causes a disruption of their metabolism of alcohol
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Tea
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Latest reports seem to think its Phosphorus that will be the limiting factor as supplies are very limited.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:59 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:17 am
CO2 is needed for plant growth, yes. But it is not a case of "keep adding CO2 and keep getting better results". For one thing, you need to add other nutrients too. For crop species, nitrogen is supplied by fertiliser which of course makes the crop more expensive, but away from fields nitrogen is a limiting factor in plant growth because most plants grow in soils that don't have sufficient nitrogen anyway. These plants won't "benefit" from higher CO2 levels. Oh, and you need more water too, because in order for the CO2 to be used in plant growth, you need water along with the nitrogen (and other things).
Also, whilst crop species grow better with increased CO2, the level of human-required nutrients in those crops decreases to the point that people relying on those crops as a staple food will be malnourished. Protein levels are reduced (protein requires nitrogen and as already noted, nitrogen deficiency is a problem anyway). Essential minerals such as iron and zinc are also available in lower concentrations. In countries that already have high anaemia levels, the problem will be made worse by increased CO2 in the atmosphere. Over a billion people already suffer from anaemia - that number will increase.
The oh-so-simple argument that "plants need CO2 so it's all ok" really does fall apart when the science is looked at. Of course, that's the same for many things where overly simple "sound bites" are used as defence.
what a bunch of condescending and crooked greenist propaganda !

Sorry if the reality of plant growth don't match your own desires. Increased CO2 on it's own isn't enough for enhanced growth unless other things are provided to give the necessary other constituents of plant cells.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:54 pm
Sorry if the reality of plant growth don't match your own desires. Increased CO2 on it's own isn't enough for enhanced growth unless other things are provided to give the necessary other constituents of plant cells.
more condescension !
(I understood your point where you first presented it - and you have no reason to think otherwise)

yours seems to be the perverse position
do farmers worldwide know you expect them to constrain production to comply with this apparently EcoNazi political stance ?

much nitrogenation comes via crop rotation - atmospheric nitrogen being fixed by crops that are doubly useful
closer to the Equator natural nitrogenation falls in the rain
natural processes being much the largest source of the nitrogen that plants need and use

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Australian GP might be threatened

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:48 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:54 pm
Sorry if the reality of plant growth don't match your own desires. Increased CO2 on it's own isn't enough for enhanced growth unless other things are provided to give the necessary other constituents of plant cells.
more condescension !
(I understood your point where you first presented it - and you have no reason to think otherwise)

yours seems to be the perverse position
do farmers worldwide know you expect them to constrain production to comply with this apparently EcoNazi political stance ?

much nitrogenation comes via crop rotation - atmospheric nitrogen being fixed by crops that are doubly useful
closer to the Equator natural nitrogenation falls in the rain
natural processes being much the largest source of the nitrogen that plants need and use
1. If you insist on being insulting and generally unpleasant, you'll be playing in the sandbox on your own.

2. If natural nitrogen plus nitrogen from rotation is sufficient already (and by extension will be ok with more CO2 too), why does so much nitrogen get added to fields by farmers in the form of fertiliser? Might it be because there is insufficient available to plants even at current CO2 levels? What about other elements - phosphorous has been mentioned by another poster. And as already mentioned, increased yields don't necessarily mean increased nutritional value. Proteins can be lower, zinc and iron likewise. I well remember doing an experiment at school where I grew maize plants in a large number of different nutrient concentrations. Small changes of just one nutrient or mineral can reduce the plant's vigour. If we accept the premise that we can benefit from raised atmospheric CO2 in the form of increased crop yields, we will have to increase the availability of everything else those crop plants require. There will be a cost be it economic or, perversely, environmental from providing those additional nutrients.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"