2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Jolle
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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The leclerc seatbelts puzzle me. He spun just before pit entry. He wasn’t in “the buzz of the moment and stormed off because he thought he was retiring. First he told the pit “the belts came undone when I tried to start the car”, which is bollock anyway (it’s a turning knob on their bellybutton).
Or he gave up, undid his belts and then started the car and should have come in the pit right away because.. well... his belts were undone. Or, he found himself in a position that he couldn’t score any points and decided to unbuckle to cause a DNF.
Any driver knows that you can’t strap yourself in while driving.

Mchamilton
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Wynters wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:06 pm
I think you can probably cover it at the next drivers' briefing. "Novel situation...never had it before...can never happen again...immediately black flag and race ban in future, etc, etc, etc."

It's in the same vein as Hamilton loosening his seat belts during the victory lap. Tell them not to, threaten very harsh punishment, and it shouldn't happen again.

I'd be more concerned with K-Mag blowing past Ocon in FP 3, then immediately slowing down and swinging into Ocon's path. He knew Ocon was there as he'd just overtaken him but he clearly wasn't looking in his mirrors when he pulled right and quickly slowed (there's no comment that it had happened on the radio as his engineer was briefing him for the next lap). I'm amazed he wasn't penalised. The stewards ruled that "When he [Ocon] subsequently looked forward, he was surprised to see Magnussen directly ahead of him and swerved to avoid a collision. Both drivers and the Stewards agreed that it was an unfortunate accident and that neither driver was to blame." which seems like a massive cop out. 'Just one of those things, lets keep having cars pulling into the path of other drivers and then slowing right down directly in front of them, it'll be fine. It's not like anyone's died in just that sort of accident.'
Ocon let kmag past, so ocon was clearly going slowly. Kmag has every right to also move off the racing line and slow down. Ocon is the car behind, it's his responsibility to avoid collision with cars in front however quickly they're going. Ocon has his complete attention on his mirror at the time and that is not 1 bit Kmags fault. Kmag can't both get out the way of cars on a fast lap and cars on slow laps at the same time. As noted by the stewards Kmag didn't brake he simply lifted with regen.
Honestly have no idea how anybody can apportion blame for that incident onto Kmag.

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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Mchamilton wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:48 pm
Wynters wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:06 pm
I think you can probably cover it at the next drivers' briefing. "Novel situation...never had it before...can never happen again...immediately black flag and race ban in future, etc, etc, etc."

It's in the same vein as Hamilton loosening his seat belts during the victory lap. Tell them not to, threaten very harsh punishment, and it shouldn't happen again.

I'd be more concerned with K-Mag blowing past Ocon in FP 3, then immediately slowing down and swinging into Ocon's path. He knew Ocon was there as he'd just overtaken him but he clearly wasn't looking in his mirrors when he pulled right and quickly slowed (there's no comment that it had happened on the radio as his engineer was briefing him for the next lap). I'm amazed he wasn't penalised. The stewards ruled that "When he [Ocon] subsequently looked forward, he was surprised to see Magnussen directly ahead of him and swerved to avoid a collision. Both drivers and the Stewards agreed that it was an unfortunate accident and that neither driver was to blame." which seems like a massive cop out. 'Just one of those things, lets keep having cars pulling into the path of other drivers and then slowing right down directly in front of them, it'll be fine. It's not like anyone's died in just that sort of accident.'
Ocon let kmag past, so ocon was clearly going slowly. Kmag has every right to also move off the racing line and slow down. Ocon is the car behind, it's his responsibility to avoid collision with cars in front however quickly they're going. Ocon has his complete attention on his mirror at the time and that is not 1 bit Kmags fault. Kmag can't both get out the way of cars on a fast lap and cars on slow laps at the same time. As noted by the stewards Kmag didn't brake he simply lifted with regen.
Honestly have no idea how anybody can apportion blame for that incident onto Kmag.
It's interesting, how Magnussen and Grosjean gets involved in so many incidents! As if, Haas has hired them for it. :)
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

Wynters
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Mchamilton wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:48 pm
Ocon let kmag past, so ocon was clearly going slowly. Kmag has every right to also move off the racing line and slow down. Ocon is the car behind, it's his responsibility to avoid collision with cars in front however quickly they're going. Ocon has his complete attention on his mirror at the time and that is not 1 bit Kmags fault. Kmag can't both get out the way of cars on a fast lap and cars on slow laps at the same time. As noted by the stewards Kmag didn't brake he simply lifted with regen.
Everyone else seems to manage it?

There is no practical difference between braking, and not pressing the accelerator whilst heavily harvesting. Both result in the car slowing sharply. Would your opinion have changed if K-Mag had applied the brakes instead? Is so, why? Both were deliberate decisions to decelerate with no idea of where the driver behind was (at the start of a straight, no less).

I tend to ascribe to the 'lane' theory. K-Mag pulled into Ocon's lane, then changed their relative velocities without any awareness of where Ocon was or the speed he was going at. Ocon was in exactly the 'lane' he was in when K-Mag last saw him and had not accelerated beyond his expected curve.

Suppose Ocon had sped up to take the position back in preparation for a fast lap? For all K-Mag knew, Ocon had just floored it and was pulling level with him, closing rapidly, when K-Mag swung into his lane and decelerated rapidly? Villeneuve-style. We know K-Mag hadn't bothered to check his mirrors.

Also (but seperately), bear in mind that, if it is purely the car behind's responsibility to do all the moving and alter their pace to fit around the actions of the car in front, then no one can be charged with impeding.

Mchamilton
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Wynters wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:27 pm
Mchamilton wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:48 pm
Ocon let kmag past, so ocon was clearly going slowly. Kmag has every right to also move off the racing line and slow down. Ocon is the car behind, it's his responsibility to avoid collision with cars in front however quickly they're going. Ocon has his complete attention on his mirror at the time and that is not 1 bit Kmags fault. Kmag can't both get out the way of cars on a fast lap and cars on slow laps at the same time. As noted by the stewards Kmag didn't brake he simply lifted with regen.
Everyone else seems to manage it?

There is no practical difference between braking, and not pressing the accelerator whilst heavily harvesting. Both result in the car slowing sharply. Would your opinion have changed if K-Mag had applied the brakes instead? Is so, why? Both were deliberate decisions to decelerate with no idea of where the driver behind was (at the start of a straight, no less).

I tend to ascribe to the 'lane' theory. K-Mag pulled into Ocon's lane, then changed their relative velocities without any awareness of where Ocon was or the speed he was going at. Ocon was in exactly the 'lane' he was in when K-Mag last saw him and had not accelerated beyond his expected curve.

Suppose Ocon had sped up to take the position back in preparation for a fast lap? For all K-Mag knew, Ocon had just floored it and was pulling level with him, closing rapidly, when K-Mag swung into his lane and decelerated rapidly? Villeneuve-style. We know K-Mag hadn't bothered to check his mirrors.

Also (but seperately), bear in mind that, if it is purely the car behind's responsibility to do all the moving and alter their pace to fit around the actions of the car in front, then no one can be charged with impeding.
Everyone else also manages to check their mirrors and in front off them without being surprised by a car in front. He know kmag was there, so to stare in him mirror as long as he did was a bit silly. I agree with your lane theory but only to the point where there are 2 lanes, fast and slow. Impeding is quite different as that involved a car on a timed lap a car on a slow lap, this incident was 2 cars on slow laps so that seperate point you made can stay sperate and irrelevant.

Wynters
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Mchamilton wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:52 pm
Everyone else also manages to check their mirrors and in front off them without being surprised by a car in front. He know kmag was there, so to stare in him mirror as long as he did was a bit silly.
How long did Ocon spend looking in his mirrors?

How long did K-Mag?
Mchamilton wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:52 pm
I agree with your lane theory but only to the point where there are 2 lanes, fast and slow.
Perhaps K-Mag needs a special 'Really slow' lane because it's pretty clear he was travelling more slowly than the 'slow' lane.

I guess our perceptions differ at a fairly basic point:-
I think swerving in front of a car, that I know is there and on that line, and then rapidly braking, without even looking, is dangerous. You think it's all on the car behind. The Stewards think no one is to blame.

One incident. Three people/groups. Three wildly opposing points of view. How human.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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I've heard a few times that Haas are (the only?) team who have a policy of not notifying their drivers when someone is coming up behind them. Don't know if it's (still) the case but it explains why they are caught in these situations so much when they happen. No idea why they wouldn't choose to inform the drivers. I'd have thought that should be made mandatory.

foxmulder_ms
foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:40 am
I've heard a few times that Haas are (the only?) team who have a policy of not notifying their drivers when someone is coming up behind them. Don't know if it's (still) the case but it explains why they are caught in these situations so much when they happen. No idea why they wouldn't choose to inform the drivers. I'd have thought that should be made mandatory.
? that is not possible.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:18 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:40 am
I've heard a few times that Haas are (the only?) team who have a policy of not notifying their drivers when someone is coming up behind them. Don't know if it's (still) the case but it explains why they are caught in these situations so much when they happen. No idea why they wouldn't choose to inform the drivers. I'd have thought that should be made mandatory.
? that is not possible.
There are blue flags anyway.When a marshal post is told to use blue flags a light shows in the car with that number.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:18 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:40 am
I've heard a few times that Haas are (the only?) team who have a policy of not notifying their drivers when someone is coming up behind them. Don't know if it's (still) the case but it explains why they are caught in these situations so much when they happen. No idea why they wouldn't choose to inform the drivers. I'd have thought that should be made mandatory.
? that is not possible.
Not in a race- in practice and qualifying.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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I think Ocon was looking so hard in his mirror as he saw KMag come past him, then move over, so Ocon then looks to see who Mag is moving out of the way for. Kmag then slows down enough to let the 3rd car pass before turn 4. Ocon only slowed down enough to allow KMag through before turn 4. For me, no one was really to blame, the only thing I find odd was, why was KMag in a hurry that he felt the need to pass Ocon?
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ispano6
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Wynters wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:06 pm
I think you can probably cover it at the next drivers' briefing. "Novel situation...never had it before...can never happen again...immediately black flag and race ban in future, etc, etc, etc."

It's in the same vein as Hamilton loosening his seat belts during the victory lap. Tell them not to, threaten very harsh punishment, and it shouldn't happen again.

I'd be more concerned with K-Mag blowing past Ocon in FP 3, then immediately slowing down and swinging into Ocon's path. He knew Ocon was there as he'd just overtaken him but he clearly wasn't looking in his mirrors when he pulled right and quickly slowed (there's no comment that it had happened on the radio as his engineer was briefing him for the next lap). I'm amazed he wasn't penalised. The stewards ruled that "When he [Ocon] subsequently looked forward, he was surprised to see Magnussen directly ahead of him and swerved to avoid a collision. Both drivers and the Stewards agreed that it was an unfortunate accident and that neither driver was to blame." which seems like a massive cop out. 'Just one of those things, lets keep having cars pulling into the path of other drivers and then slowing right down directly in front of them, it'll be fine. It's not like anyone's died in just that sort of accident.'
Ocon just had a massive brain fart and took evasive action. Driver error.

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Ocon was told Kmag was on a fast lap just seconds before. He moved over, checked his mirrors to also let the next one through and, fcuk there is Kmag.
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