2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Mogster
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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The second Merc is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Best car in F1 but Lewis is going to make you look like a numpty.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Mogster wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:07 am
The second Merc is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Best car in F1 but Lewis is going to make you look like a numpty.
I would not mind looking a numpty and be second in the World :mrgreen:

It is still a far better possibility than any other seat in F1, and Hamilton could decide to stop racing at any time, and be there to pounce.
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

Wynters
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Never blame on conspiracy something that can be blamed on incompetence. There's ample evidence that the Stewards (in general) couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The idea that they could string together some sort of multi-race, consistent anti-Hamilton campaign is entirely at odds with their inability to string together consistency across multiple laps of the same race.

I secretly suspect that the reason Salo had sufficient time to leak information is because all the Stewards do is arrive in the morning, spin one wheel with all the driver's names on, one wheel with all the penalties and one wheel with a random list of infringements and then issue their rulings based on that. If they get really bored, they spin the wheels again.

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Phil
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:53 am
The pressure of being Hamilton’s team mate must be unreal though.
To be honest, I think that pressure is overrated. He's performing alright and he is doing exactly what Mercedes is expecting, without the pressure of having to win race after race and championships. Imagine the kind of pressure Vettel has been under and being the lead guy.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Phil wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:48 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:53 am
The pressure of being Hamilton’s team mate must be unreal though.
To be honest, I think that pressure is overrated. He's performing alright and he is doing exactly what Mercedes is expecting, without the pressure of having to win race after race and championships. Imagine the kind of pressure Vettel has been under and being the lead guy.
You are probably right- with Bottas it might rather be pressure he's putting on himself to win rather than pressure from the expectations of others although undoubtedly there's a lot of scrutiny on him in the media. He clearly feels he has a point to prove. From the team's point of view he's absolutely doing a great job complimenting Hamilton and most importantly level headed enough not to be taking stupid risks when racing.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Wynters wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:37 am
Never blame on conspiracy something that can be blamed on incompetence. There's ample evidence that the Stewards (in general) couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The idea that they could string together some sort of multi-race, consistent anti-Hamilton campaign is entirely at odds with their inability to string together consistency across multiple laps of the same race.

I secretly suspect that the reason Salo had sufficient time to leak information is because all the Stewards do is arrive in the morning, spin one wheel with all the driver's names on, one wheel with all the penalties and one wheel with a random list of infringements and then issue their rulings based on that. If they get really bored, they spin the wheels again.
The stewards job is to interpret and implement the rules, not write them.
It would seem that the rules are not written well enough which very few are. So procedures are in place to remove ambiguity.

This is to be expected, and happens in law. If a judge makes a decision, (interpretation) then that is called a precedent and is (usually) interpreted the same way in any following trial, or by enforcement when bringing charges.

This does not seem to be happening here, where it can change from week to week from the same rule (that is unclear)
Last edited by Big Tea on Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Mogster wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:07 am
The second Merc is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Best car in F1 but Lewis is going to make you look like a numpty.
The thing with Lewis (and other drivers too, I suspect) is, if he's being nice and friendly then you know that he knows he's got you where he wants you. If he starts being unpleasant, making comments, etc., then you know you've got his attention. How does Hamilton treat Bottas? It's quite chummy from his side, isn't it? Ergo he doesn't feel threatened by Bottas with regards to the title race. The occasional weekend? Sure Bottas will have the upper hand, but over a season it appears that they both know who's got whom where they want them.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Wynters
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:37 pm
The stewards job is to interpret and implement the rules, not write them.
It would seem that the rules are not written well enough which very few are. So procedures are in place to remove ambiguity.

This is to be expected, and happens in law. If a judge makes a decision, (interpretation) then that is called a precedent and is (usually) interpreted the same way in any following trial, or by enforcement when bringing charges.

This does not seem to be happening here, where it can change from week to week from the same rule (that is unclear)
A very fair comment. I suspect some of the problem comes down to not having a consistent panel. I also suspect that the level of professionalism varies across those different members.

I'd be fascinated to see a recording or transcript of the discussions. A transcript could be anonymised if people were concerned about backlash and, like a court of law, I feel it would benefit customers (viewers) to see a transparent process. It not only would allow us to see well-argued points of view that are different to our own but non-proprietary information (such as the fabled 'conclusive camera angles unavailable to the public') could be shared.

Anything to avoid the current:-
"Why did you punish this incident when a seemingly identical incident two laps later was ignored?"
"Secret reasons."

oT v1
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Bottas is picking more wins than Max and Leclerc, the future stars, with a lot less media pressure, it must be a great seat. It wasn’t enough for Rosberg and he managed to overcome Hamilton for a season but if Bottas is not that way inclined I think it’s perfect!! He did seem a bit annoyed with the critics at the beginning of last season but the man is adding poles and wins to his record quite regularly.
The Power of Dreams

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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oT v1 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:45 pm
Bottas is picking more wins than Max and Leclerc, the future stars, with a lot less media pressure, it must be a great seat. It wasn’t enough for Rosberg and he managed to overcome Hamilton for a season but if Bottas is not that way inclined I think it’s perfect!! He did seem a bit annoyed with the critics at the beginning of last season but the man is adding poles and wins to his record quite regularly.
It's a great seat if you don't have aspirations of being champion. But Bottas clearly does, whether they are realistic unless some bad fortune befalls Hamilton. He's just not seemingly got it in his nature to dabble in the dark arts like Rosberg did. I'd argue as well that he's very fast over a lap like Rosberg, but doesn't seem to have the ability to clinically carve through the field if not at the front, like Rosberg and the likes of Hamilton, Vettel and Verstappen have all demonstrated in the past.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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More on LEC doing a similar practice start at SPA

https://the-race.com/formula-1/hamilton ... t-leclerc/

dans79
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:00 pm
More on LEC doing a similar practice start at SPA

https://the-race.com/formula-1/hamilton ... t-leclerc/
I wonder how hard the FIA/Masi is going to try and ignore this fact. It would be nice if the press actually put the screws to the FIA/Masi for stuff like this instead of defaulting to the constant fluff they all turn out now.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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oT v1 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:45 pm
Bottas is picking more wins than Max and Leclerc, the future stars, with a lot less media pressure, it must be a great seat. It wasn’t enough for Rosberg and he managed to overcome Hamilton for a season but if Bottas is not that way inclined I think it’s perfect!! He did seem a bit annoyed with the critics at the beginning of last season but the man is adding poles and wins to his record quite regularly.
But Bottas's wins are more often than not "hand-me-downs" as a result of a Hamilton error or misfortune. Bottas isn't taking the fight to Hamilton and winning races from under him. He's hanging around and picking up scraps. Rosberg was much more in the fight than Bottas is. Which is strange because Bottas is a quick guy. So it's not down to a lack of pure speed.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:30 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:00 pm
More on LEC doing a similar practice start at SPA

https://the-race.com/formula-1/hamilton ... t-leclerc/
I wonder how hard the FIA/Masi is going to try and ignore this fact. It would be nice if the press actually put the screws to the FIA/Masi for stuff like this instead of defaulting to the constant fluff they all turn out now.
It's not the first time they have been blatantly inconsistent and it won't be the last. They will just recycle whatever defence they have used in the past.

The paragraph below sums it up well: Stewards are amateurs. I acknoledge that improvements must be made in how the rules are defined but at the end of the day it's up to a bunch of part timers to enforce them correctly.
The first step to solving this, surely, is to acknowledge stewarding should be a full-time occupation. Professionalise the process. They are referees, after all, and other sports with the necessary resource treat that with the respect and commitment the role demands. As it stands the FIA picks from a rotating pool of stewards, for whom this is not a full-time job.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:00 pm
More on LEC doing a similar practice start at SPA

https://the-race.com/formula-1/hamilton ... t-leclerc/
That article really highlights some glaring and concerning inconsistencies which those concerned should be made to answer to. Or at the very least hold their hands up and say they've messed up or at minimum not shown consistency with enforcing rules and applying penalties. The two crashes, fair enough could be open to interpretation and we get those scenarios all the time, but the Leclerc vs Hamilton practice starts and how they were each handled absolutely stinks.

Different stewards, but Masi should be the common factor here to tell them something similar happened a few races ago and what the penalty was.