2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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hUirEYExbN
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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Racer X wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:04 am
Important question... Do we retire the 2mm joke along with Albons dreams of ever winning a Grand Prix? Or do we continue to use the 2mm joke and have some faith for Albon?
Memes are cancer, half this thread before the race was just people forcing 2 mm into everything. Albon is not cancer, but he is dragging RB further back than he needs to be. Take them both round back and put them out of our misery.

epo
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:20 am
People say the merc is so dominant granny can win the WDC then they say Max scalps Bottas easily signifying that the car is not dominant.
It is SUPER DOMINANT, your granny would win but just as Bottas if he didn't make a mistake.
Getting seriously bored with people saying it's not.
Hamilton is a good driver but most of his championship titles were just gifts from his DOMINANT car. That is his luck, good for him.
Last edited by epo on Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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djos
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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A rather good race I thought and I was stoked to see Danny Ric on the podium once more!
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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Max wont scalp Bottas easily. See f.e. Sochi. But in this race I think he would have taken Bottas yes. But we can never be sure. The fact Max was on provisional pole (first time this year) and that he took fastest lap on equally old tires are indicators redbull is coming closer. At least on this specific track, with no data and a lost friday they were.

Bottas had used op his tires quite early on already. He would have needed a very long stint on yellow. Then there was the first luck for Max and Lewis with pitting under VSC. But ok, that also doesn’t count as own pace. But, yes, I think now RBR is moving closer. But when Lewis is up front the difference is still there, 2-3 tenths I think.
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i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:19 am
Then there was the first luck for Max and Lewis with pitting under VSC.
You could see it that way, but then Bottas lost out because he was forced to pit after locking up.
Last edited by i70q7m7ghw on Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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That is true, so yes, due to own mistake waiting for Any VSC window was out of the window.
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toraabe
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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3 different engines at podium. Not too soon. And very happy for Renault.

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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I wonder how big the impact was at not able to run Sims on Friday night. The teams that outperformed yesterday should look at improving this.

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SiLo
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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Hammerfist wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:18 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:19 pm
LM10 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:12 pm
In today's race we've seen once again that it's a Lewis Hamilton championship. And it's been like that from the beginning. Bottas is a solid qualifier, but he sadly and clearly lacks race pace. His team mate doesn't even need to go to anywhere near his limits to outperform him. If someone claims the opposite, it's just a lie. Lewis is basically walking to the title.
And since Mercedes is way too strong this season, Max can't challenge Lewis either. It's amazing enough for him to constantly keep pace with the Mercedes.

Hulk has done a very good job today and also Leclerc had a strong race overall.
Its not race pace Bottas lacks, he always loses out with a mistake. Again, he did a huge lock up which spoiled his line and spoiled his tyres for a fight back. Yes, the engine fail was not his fault, but he was beaten by then.

1%, but Hamilton only needs 1%. If just about any other driver was in Hamilton's car I think Bottas would be in the fight all year, but how many mistakes does Hamilton make when it counts?

He is definitely lacking in race pace. It allowed Hamilton to stay well within 1.8 sec throughout the first few laps, then Ham closes to within drs and Bottas reacts to that, overcooks the braking and its game over.

If bottas had better race pace he would never allow Hamilton the drs, he would create a buffer, which would allow him to stay ahead if he made a mistake.

Not easy though with Lewis all over you.just fairly recently he has done the same against Rosberg, Vettel and even Leclerc. Such relentless pressure is bound to produce an error sooner or later.
We really saw this after Bottas fell back, Hamilton drove away from Max. But before Bottas made his mistake, Max was just happily keeping pace with them both.
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:30 am
Hammerfist wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:18 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:19 pm


Its not race pace Bottas lacks, he always loses out with a mistake. Again, he did a huge lock up which spoiled his line and spoiled his tyres for a fight back. Yes, the engine fail was not his fault, but he was beaten by then.

1%, but Hamilton only needs 1%. If just about any other driver was in Hamilton's car I think Bottas would be in the fight all year, but how many mistakes does Hamilton make when it counts?

He is definitely lacking in race pace. It allowed Hamilton to stay well within 1.8 sec throughout the first few laps, then Ham closes to within drs and Bottas reacts to that, overcooks the braking and its game over.

If bottas had better race pace he would never allow Hamilton the drs, he would create a buffer, which would allow him to stay ahead if he made a mistake.

Not easy though with Lewis all over you.just fairly recently he has done the same against Rosberg, Vettel and even Leclerc. Such relentless pressure is bound to produce an error sooner or later.
We really saw this after Bottas fell back, Hamilton drove away from Max. But before Bottas made his mistake, Max was just happily keeping pace with them both.
This is the exact reason I’m always a bit fearful when BOT is ahead of HAM. The 1-2 becomes difficult because BOT keeps the top pack close, by not being quite fast enough. HAM therefore has more to do to secure a 2nd place.
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:20 am
People say the merc is so dominant granny can win the WDC then they say Max scalps Bottas easily signifying that the car is not dominant.
It is very dominant. Bottas from obscurity became a title contender, a serial winner, serial pole setter, WDC runner up and is currently set for runners up this year too.

This car has made 3 drivers serial winners, title contenders, serial pole setters, and 2 of them world champions. It took Ferrari to bend rules to interrupt clean 1-2 in 2017-2018

When Vettel won in RBR his titles were ridiculed for having the fastest car and said anyone could win in it. When it was pointed out that Webber did not once finish runner up to any of his 4 titles, people said Webber was a rubbish driver.

When Hamilton is winning the narrative his fans try to peddle the narrative week in week out that the car is not dominant when we are seeing quali laps 1 second faster than their nearest rivals.

In 2014 Mercedes won 16/19 races same in 2015
In 2016 won 19/21 races
2017 took 12/20
2018 took 11/20
2019 took 15/21
2020 so far 9/11

Compare this to RBR of which people said was a dominant car:

2010: 9/19
2011: 12/19
2012: 7/20
2013: 13/19 (Peak of dominance)

Statistics do not have opinions, they do not have favorites, where as people do. From your statement I can deduce you are a Lewis fan.

If RBR was dominant with these statistics why is Mercedes with even better statistics not? By your logic Bottas being scalped by Max as the indicator to Mercedes not being dominant, then Webber was sculpt many, many times so RBR was not dominant.

If Bottas had not retired yesterday, he would have jumped Hamilton with the undercut, and the safety car for Nando would have canceled out his early stop. You will most likely say fortune saved Bottas from Max but Max benefited from misfortune for Bottas in Silverstone.

My point is, there is nothing wrong with Hamilton or Bottas being in a dominant car they are not the first to be in one nor will they be the last to be in one. A win is a win why then defend a win that is already won? There is no provision by the FIA when a driver wins in a dominant car that says "WDC but in a dominant car" it's just WDC.

At least be fair in your claims. Hamilton will be a 7 times champion this year and there is no shame in being in the fastest car many others have done it in the fastest car, he is not the only one to do it.

grubschumi13
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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214270 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:00 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:30 am
Hammerfist wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:18 pm



He is definitely lacking in race pace. It allowed Hamilton to stay well within 1.8 sec throughout the first few laps, then Ham closes to within drs and Bottas reacts to that, overcooks the braking and its game over.

If bottas had better race pace he would never allow Hamilton the drs, he would create a buffer, which would allow him to stay ahead if he made a mistake.

Not easy though with Lewis all over you.just fairly recently he has done the same against Rosberg, Vettel and even Leclerc. Such relentless pressure is bound to produce an error sooner or later.
We really saw this after Bottas fell back, Hamilton drove away from Max. But before Bottas made his mistake, Max was just happily keeping pace with them both.
This is the exact reason I’m always a bit fearful when BOT is ahead of HAM. The 1-2 becomes difficult because BOT keeps the top pack close, by not being quite fast enough. HAM therefore has more to do to secure a 2nd place.
Are you sure it is because Bottas is slow or he is playing a similar game as Lewis did in Baku 2016. From Bottas' perspective with so much ground to make up on, I can see why he would not dart off into the distance and allow Lewis to build a gap to 3rd place. If you were him fighting Lewis for the world title would you not want him within RBR strategic window. Of course this approach means you a likely to be punished for a small mistake which Bottas was . Its only the previous race in Sochi he left Max in his dust but what was different in that race?

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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grubschumi13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:24 pm
214270 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:00 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:30 am


We really saw this after Bottas fell back, Hamilton drove away from Max. But before Bottas made his mistake, Max was just happily keeping pace with them both.
This is the exact reason I’m always a bit fearful when BOT is ahead of HAM. The 1-2 becomes difficult because BOT keeps the top pack close, by not being quite fast enough. HAM therefore has more to do to secure a 2nd place.
Are you sure it is because Bottas is slow or he is playing a similar game as Lewis did in Baku 2016. From Bottas' perspective with so much ground to make up on, I can see why he would not dart off into the distance and allow Lewis to build a gap to 3rd place. If you were him fighting Lewis for the world title would you not want him within RBR strategic window. Of course this approach means you a likely to be punished for a small mistake which Bottas was . Its only the previous race in Sochi he left Max in his dust but what was different in that race?
Yes, you could be right; but I think it’s because BOT is slower. HAM pretty much always stays with BOT, it’s not the case for BOT when HAM is in front.
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:20 am
People say the merc is so dominant granny can win the WDC then they say Max scalps Bottas easily signifying that the car is not dominant.
That's like saying 2013 RB9 wasn't dominant because Webber didn't win a single race and was even beaten by alonso in WDC standings :lol: :lol: Really genius thinking I must admit.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Nürburgring, October 9-11

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grubschumi13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:16 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:20 am
People say the merc is so dominant granny can win the WDC then they say Max scalps Bottas easily signifying that the car is not dominant.
It is very dominant. Bottas from obscurity became a title contender, a serial winner, serial pole setter, WDC runner up and is currently set for runners up this year too.

This car has made 3 drivers serial winners, title contenders, serial pole setters, and 2 of them world champions. It took Ferrari to bend rules to interrupt clean 1-2 in 2017-2018

When Vettel won in RBR his titles were ridiculed for having the fastest car and said anyone could win in it. When it was pointed out that Webber did not once finish runner up to any of his 4 titles, people said Webber was a rubbish driver.

When Hamilton is winning the narrative his fans try to peddle the narrative week in week out that the car is not dominant when we are seeing quali laps 1 second faster than their nearest rivals.

In 2014 Mercedes won 16/19 races same in 2015
In 2016 won 19/21 races
2017 took 12/20
2018 took 11/20
2019 took 15/21
2020 so far 9/11

Compare this to RBR of which people said was a dominant car:

2010: 9/19
2011: 12/19
2012: 7/20
2013: 13/19 (Peak of dominance)

Statistics do not have opinions, they do not have favorites, where as people do. From your statement I can deduce you are a Lewis fan.

If RBR was dominant with these statistics why is Mercedes with even better statistics not? By your logic Bottas being scalped by Max as the indicator to Mercedes not being dominant, then Webber was sculpt many, many times so RBR was not dominant.

If Bottas had not retired yesterday, he would have jumped Hamilton with the undercut, and the safety car for Nando would have canceled out his early stop. You will most likely say fortune saved Bottas from Max but Max benefited from misfortune for Bottas in Silverstone.

My point is, there is nothing wrong with Hamilton or Bottas being in a dominant car they are not the first to be in one nor will they be the last to be in one. A win is a win why then defend a win that is already won? There is no provision by the FIA when a driver wins in a dominant car that says "WDC but in a dominant car" it's just WDC.

At least be fair in your claims. Hamilton will be a 7 times champion this year and there is no shame in being in the fastest car many others have done it in the fastest car, he is not the only one to do it.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Bottas came from obscurity and became a serial winner. He was pretty highly thought of from when he entered the sport and it was absolutely not a bolt from the blue when he got the Mercedes drive. He'd done a very good job at Williams and was a 27(ish) year old up and coming driver at the time with an unknown ceiling. I'd dispute the serial winner bit as well. (9 wins from 73 in the Mercedes?) It's hardly the correct narrative that a total unknown/journeyman was plonked in the car and is now smashing everything out of the park. However, he's probably not delivered as much has he should have done since joining the team, but he IS up against one of the best drivers of all time. I think he's used as a barometer by both people who like and dislike Hamilton in attempt to either validate or disprove claims about Hamilton's abilities. People will believe what they choose to believe, either way, rightly or wrongly. It's a subjective argument which will never be resolved!

However, you are completely right that the Merc is the best car on the grid, and has been since 2014* so it's only natural the strongest Merc driver has won the title each year. This has almost always been the case in F1 as you say. In fact 2008 is probably the last time a driver not in the best car won the title or in 1991 (is there an argument for 2007?) but otherwise you're going at least back to the 80s if not even further. You are also right that saying 'he's got the best car' (that can be either fastest or most reliable) is something you then have to apply to basically every champion who has ever raced. It's not a stick to just beat Hamilton with. If you apply an asterisk to him, you have to apply the same asterisk to Vettel, Schumacher, Prost, Senna and all of them.

In the end, the numbers are all objective but how people choose to interpret or caveat them is all subjective.

* edit- best from 14-16, 2020 and part of 2019. I think you could make the argument the Ferrari was the better car for portions of 2017 and 2018, and some of 2019 if you were that way inclined.
Last edited by El Scorchio on Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.