2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
dans79
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:24 pm
These are also quite literally the most expensive wins ever in the sport.

This also happened in football. In the 90s my local club was able to upset a bigger team every now and then. Now, no way. The big money rules the sport. Too big. Maybe even for F1 also as it cannot attract any new manufacturers, nor has it been able to keep the current.
That's not Merc's, or Hamilton's fault.

Blame The FIA, Bernie, and Liberty for carrying on with Bernie's practices. In the Fia never ending reach for more control and power, they have driven F1 into an ever deeper rabbit hole to find performance. The rules are so complex and overbearing they put a nuclear arms treaty document to shame.

Bernie and Liberty have also done their part to drive up costs. The new 200 Million dollar entrance fee for example.
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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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I did not say or imply fault, nor did I make any statement about how good or valid Lewis WDCs are. It was being said “cheap” victories. Made me think they actually cost a lot.

And I agree with Dans79 about how we came into this situation. The question maybe now is, is it sustainable and do we want it? I can honestly say, even if at some point Max might have a dominant car, no I do not want that. I understand there will always be dominant teams, that is the nature of the sport, but I do think we need more manufacturers entering again, instead of exitting. We need talents in seats. It needs to be the pinnacle of driving skills. Pretty soon we will have 3 sons billionaires in 20 Seats.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

DChemTech
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:30 pm
I did not say or imply fault, nor did I make any statement about how good or valid Lewis WDCs are. It was being said “cheap” victories. Made me think they actually cost a lot.

And I agree with Dans79 about how we came into this situation. The question maybe now is, is it sustainable and do we want it? I can honestly say, even if at some point Max might have a dominant car, no I do not want that. I understand there will always be dominant teams, that is the nature of the sport, but I do think we need more manufacturers entering again, instead of exitting. We need talents in seats. It needs to be the pinnacle of driving skills. Pretty soon we will have 3 sons billionaires in 20 Seats.
Honestly I think budget caps are the only way to really achieve parity, in any of these multi-million viewer sports. Left to the market, a few teams will be caught in a spiral of increasing success/funds and totally eclipse the rest. If you want a fair competition, that means aiming for rules that focus on 'who does best with equal resources', rather than 'who can buy success hence make more money hence buy better [players/drivers/equipment/...]'. It may or may not dissuade billionaire participation (teams may rely less on them to fill the budget), and if the sport as a whole gets cheaper, it may actually make tickets etc. more accessible - in a way, consumers are also victim to the spiraling costs (but equally part of the cause; them being willing to pay crazy prizes for tickets and t-shirts makes in part is cause of the major budgets. a tragedy of the commons, in ways...)

dans79
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:45 pm

Honestly I think budget caps are the only way to really achieve parity, in any of these multi-million viewer sports. Left to the market, a few teams will be caught in a spiral of increasing success/funds and totally eclipse the rest. If you want a fair competition, that means aiming for rules that focus on 'who does best with equal resources', rather than 'who can buy success hence make more money hence buy better [players/drivers/equipment/...]'.
IMO, the budget cap is forced equality, something I'm very strongly against.

When the rules were substantially more open, we didn't have this type of issue for several seasons in a row. There where so many possible development paths, that it wasn't possible to investigate them all, no matter how much money you had. As the rules stand today, the development paths are so few and so narrow that you can just throw money at investigating all of them.

What Bernie did, and Liberty is continuing to do, is take it a development centric formula series and turn it into a garbage soap opera.
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DChemTech
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:29 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:45 pm

Honestly I think budget caps are the only way to really achieve parity, in any of these multi-million viewer sports. Left to the market, a few teams will be caught in a spiral of increasing success/funds and totally eclipse the rest. If you want a fair competition, that means aiming for rules that focus on 'who does best with equal resources', rather than 'who can buy success hence make more money hence buy better [players/drivers/equipment/...]'.
IMO, the budget cap is forced equality, something I'm very strongly against.

When the rules were substantially more open, we didn't have this type of issue for several seasons in a row. There where so many possible development paths, that it wasn't possible to investigate them all, no matter how much money you had. As the rules stand today, the development paths are so few and so narrow that you can just throw money at investigating all of them.

What Bernie did, and Liberty is continuing to do, is take it a development centric formula series and turn it into a garbage soap opera.
I have to disagree with you there. Specs is forced equality, a budget cap is a forced level playing field - and a sport needs that to be exiting. Especially if you want to open up the rules more (which I favor) because it gives different routes to explore, with each team having equal means to do so. Anyway, this is not the place for detailed discussions on that topic, I think there's a separate thread for that (where these discussions no doubt have been held).

aral
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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Just a reminder that the topic of this thread is the 2020 Portugese GP, and not the usual arguments over which driver is better than another. So please less of the driver comparison arguments.

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strad
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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Big +1 to both Dan and DC. I'd give you both an upvote but that would violate the site rules. :wink:
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etusch
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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There is not slow driver, there is less vodka


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ispano6
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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Imagine how much more interesting this season would have been if engine upgrades were allowed.
The season is pretty much over and the rest of the races are to determine 3rd through 7th place in the constructors standings and 4th-12th in the drivers.

carisi2k
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:15 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:34 am
Lewis didn't beat Alonso he tied him and he never convincingly beat button. In fact in 2011 it was Jenson that spanked Lewis significantly. But your point is taken that Lewis has had harder teammates then Max and Charles.
Have another look at the standings for 2007. :) And Ham was a rookie, Alonso was 2 time champion, 6 poles vs 2... !

That is a beating.
Poles don't pay. Massa out qualified Kimi and yet who ended up being WC in 2007.

What happened in the races was 4 wins a piece and 6 for kimi. They finished on the same points and there fore it was a tie. Lewis is no ordinary rookie. Who else in the history of F1 has ever been given a race winning and championship capable car in their first year. While Lewis was a rookie in terms of F1 races he certainly wasn't a rookie at Mclaren whereas Fernando was. It makes you wonder what would have happened if Fernando stayed at Renault instead of going to Mclaren.

DChemTech
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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carisi2k wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:23 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:15 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:34 am
Lewis didn't beat Alonso he tied him and he never convincingly beat button. In fact in 2011 it was Jenson that spanked Lewis significantly. But your point is taken that Lewis has had harder teammates then Max and Charles.
Have another look at the standings for 2007. :) And Ham was a rookie, Alonso was 2 time champion, 6 poles vs 2... !

That is a beating.
Poles don't pay. Massa out qualified Kimi and yet who ended up being WC in 2007.

What happened in the races was 4 wins a piece and 6 for kimi. They finished on the same points and there fore it was a tie. Lewis is no ordinary rookie. Who else in the history of F1 has ever been given a race winning and championship capable car in their first year. While Lewis was a rookie in terms of F1 races he certainly wasn't a rookie at Mclaren whereas Fernando was. It makes you wonder what would have happened if Fernando stayed at Renault instead of going to Mclaren.
Villeneuve comes to mind on getting a winning car in year 1.. and well, he didn't do too bad at that, either.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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True. But Jacques lost to Damon Hill, where as Lewis beat Fernando Alonso. Alonso is probably 2 tiers higher than Hill.

Hamilton beating Alonso was simply amazing. Remembering things like Max losing to Ricciardo for 2 seasons before he beat him. Schumacher was outscored by Piquet in their time as team mates in 91. Alain Prost was outscored by John Watson in 1980. So it kind of puts into perspective how big Lewis' debut season was. Its like Mick Schumacher coming in next season and beating Lewis in the same car.
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ringo
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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Note also Alonso was a 2 x defending champion!
For Sure!!

Jolle
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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DChemTech wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:03 am
carisi2k wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:23 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:15 pm


Have another look at the standings for 2007. :) And Ham was a rookie, Alonso was 2 time champion, 6 poles vs 2... !

That is a beating.
Poles don't pay. Massa out qualified Kimi and yet who ended up being WC in 2007.

What happened in the races was 4 wins a piece and 6 for kimi. They finished on the same points and there fore it was a tie. Lewis is no ordinary rookie. Who else in the history of F1 has ever been given a race winning and championship capable car in their first year. While Lewis was a rookie in terms of F1 races he certainly wasn't a rookie at Mclaren whereas Fernando was. It makes you wonder what would have happened if Fernando stayed at Renault instead of going to Mclaren.
Villeneuve comes to mind on getting a winning car in year 1.. and well, he didn't do too bad at that, either.
I think since Hamilton, Albon is the only driver who sat in a race winning car in his first season in F1.

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F1NAC
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Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

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Bottas smh ....