2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Vasconia
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:04 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:06 am
Rodak wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:03 am

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Max was able to hold off Hamilton lap after lap, even though Hamilton had DRS as the following car. Max then opened up a 3 second lead and made his second stop. Mercedes should have immediately reacted, as Bottas pretty loudly pointed out. The faster car won. Could Bottas have just told Mercedes he was coming in and done it? It would be great to have drivers dictating tactics for a change......
Lewis wasn't able to overtake Max because the Dutch was clearly faster on the straight but I think it would have been a matter of time that Lewis would have overtaken him, he was clearly faster.

In any case, it must be frustating for Mercedes to realize that even in France RB has been able to fight with them and even beat them. In 2018 and 2019 Mercedes smashed the competence so the change is clear.
I think Lewis should have pitted right after Max (assuming he missed the undercut anyway) and chased him to the end. Reason being that the Mercedes should have been better on its tyres so some sort of chance would have come up to pressurize Max into a(nother) mistake.
Yes, and he should have pitted before Bottas, just to make sure that he could avoid any chance of an undercut.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Vasconia wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:00 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:04 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:06 am


Lewis wasn't able to overtake Max because the Dutch was clearly faster on the straight but I think it would have been a matter of time that Lewis would have overtaken him, he was clearly faster.

In any case, it must be frustating for Mercedes to realize that even in France RB has been able to fight with them and even beat them. In 2018 and 2019 Mercedes smashed the competence so the change is clear.
I think Lewis should have pitted right after Max (assuming he missed the undercut anyway) and chased him to the end. Reason being that the Mercedes should have been better on its tyres so some sort of chance would have come up to pressurize Max into a(nother) mistake.
Yes, and he should have pitted before Bottas, just to make sure that he could avoid any chance of an undercut.
Bottas's stop was early because he'd locked up somewhere and they were concerned about vibration and the suspension, I believe. So unless they'd pulled Hamilton first and then Bottas, they were trapped.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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If Hamilton pitted even earlier the 2 stopper would have been even more of a threat. Or they needed to go for the 2 stopper themselves. I think they will be looking for that in races to come. Strategy this season will be critical.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Because of his late stop Perez had pace enough to thwart a two stopper plan by Merc.
.. ... ... ... ...

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Zynerji
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:29 pm
Because of his late stop Perez had pace enough to thwart a two stopper plan by Merc.
And that is the chess match that we are in for over the next 15 races... Its all going to be down to Bottas and Perez for the WCC.

I'm quite excited!

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:38 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:29 pm
Because of his late stop Perez had pace enough to thwart a two stopper plan by Merc.
And that is the chess match that we are in for over the next 15 races... Its all going to be down to Bottas and Perez for the WCC.

I'm quite excited!
I'm really not sure Mercedes can compete for both titles. Chasing the WCC will probably cost them both- just like in France.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:37 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:38 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:29 pm
Because of his late stop Perez had pace enough to thwart a two stopper plan by Merc.
And that is the chess match that we are in for over the next 15 races... Its all going to be down to Bottas and Perez for the WCC.

I'm quite excited!
I'm really not sure Mercedes can compete for both titles. Chasing the WCC will probably cost them both- just like in France.
Sounds like there will be even more Drama then...

Mercedes extending their WCC record streak, or Hamilton winning record 8th WDC...

Its going to be very interesting!

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:00 am
If Hamilton pitted even earlier the 2 stopper would have been even more of a threat. Or they needed to go for the 2 stopper themselves. I think they will be looking for that in races to come. Strategy this season will be critical.
Alternately, had he stayed out a few more laps, he may have been able to hold off Max on tyres a little fresher.
Max's tyres were fading badly by the end, and had Lewis been able to gain a few tenths per lap it could have been too late.
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

basti313
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:46 am
Vasconia wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:00 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:04 pm


I think Lewis should have pitted right after Max (assuming he missed the undercut anyway) and chased him to the end. Reason being that the Mercedes should have been better on its tyres so some sort of chance would have come up to pressurize Max into a(nother) mistake.
Yes, and he should have pitted before Bottas, just to make sure that he could avoid any chance of an undercut.
Bottas's stop was early because he'd locked up somewhere and they were concerned about vibration and the suspension, I believe. So unless they'd pulled Hamilton first and then Bottas, they were trapped.
I do not think so.
There were three faults which spoil a bit the discussion on tactics:
- Bot locking up
- Fault by Ham on the inlap? 2sec longer inlap...? Or simply unexpected power of the undercut?
- Bot running wide when protecting from Ves without reason.

Remove one of these and Ham would have won the race.

Now coming to the decision and why I think they were not trapped:
With Bot going into the pits too early and Ves following, there is no direct need to go to the pits for Ham. This of course means giving up track position, but with a similar tactics as Perez, Bot hunting Ves to kill his tires...Hamilton would have reached Ves with something like 10 laps to go as a sitting duck with chewed up tires.

This is simply based on two numbers: Ham had nearly 3tenth more pace before the stop than Per. And Per had 10sec gap to Ham before the stop and went into 10sec gap again with 10laps to go.
So even with a similar pace to Per this would have worked for Ham, but he was clearly faster in the first stint.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:12 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:46 am
Vasconia wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:00 am


Yes, and he should have pitted before Bottas, just to make sure that he could avoid any chance of an undercut.
Bottas's stop was early because he'd locked up somewhere and they were concerned about vibration and the suspension, I believe. So unless they'd pulled Hamilton first and then Bottas, they were trapped.
I do not think so.
There were three faults which spoil a bit the discussion on tactics:
- Bot locking up
- Fault by Ham on the inlap? 2sec longer inlap...? Or simply unexpected power of the undercut?
- Bot running wide when protecting from Ves without reason.

Remove one of these and Ham would have won the race.

Now coming to the decision and why I think they were not trapped:
With Bot going into the pits too early and Ves following, there is no direct need to go to the pits for Ham. This of course means giving up track position, but with a similar tactics as Perez, Bot hunting Ves to kill his tires...Hamilton would have reached Ves with something like 10 laps to go as a sitting duck with chewed up tires.

This is simply based on two numbers: Ham had nearly 3tenth more pace before the stop than Per. And Per had 10sec gap to Ham before the stop and went into 10sec gap again with 10laps to go.
So even with a similar pace to Per this would have worked for Ham, but he was clearly faster in the first stint.
Not that simple I'm afraid. Mercedes are running simulations to understand why their inlaps were so slow or why max's outlap was so fast. If it were a simple driver error thing it would have been obvious. Both Ham and Bot were puzzled as to why Max was in front. Even after doing "hammer-time"

I personally thought Hamiton's get-away was a bit tardy when I saw it, but later data says otherwise. Nothing else explains a three second gain for Max than some sort of tyre anaylsis thing, which Merc are working on as we speak.

RedBull simply had the strategy and the legs oj Merc for this race. Only way to win was to keep Max behind after he slipped up in turn one or pit Hamilton after him for the chase and hope and pray that Max tyres get shot or something. I wasn't even mad at this race! RedBull wins again and I humbly accept it.
.. ... ... ... ...

darkpino
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:06 pm
langedweil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:03 pm
Bill wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:32 am
all talk about flexy wing they are no flexy wings someone has made a better pu than merc.Rbr were allegedly supposed to lose anyway from 0.3 tenths to .06 tenth it didn't happen in facts Honda found more power with better reliability and new oil
I'd say the difference lies more towards the chassis side, because RB was able to use less df and thus had a higher straightline speed. Normally over the last few years a Merc with DRS seemed unstoppable, now Lewis could only creep up.
I think engine/deployment wise Merc still has a slight upperhand.
But what do I know ..
It wasn't chassis, it was a setup choice. When they were on the same compound tires with roughly the same number of laps on them, Merc was faster in sector 1 & 3, while RBR was faster in Sector 2.
They could make that setup choice because the chassis seems pretty darn good imo

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langedweil
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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nzjrs wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:20 am
Das ist mir Wurscht.
Best quote of the thread !!
HuggaWugga !

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Interesting analysis by the Sky team looking at the respective pit stops for Max and Lewis. It appears that the Mercedes pit was hampered by the tight approach to their pit box. The two cars were fairly even going in to the pit lane, and the stop times were similar. But there was a loss of 8/10ths which was what put Max ahead after the stop.

By such margins are battles won and lost.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

lh13
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:56 pm
Interesting analysis by the Sky team looking at the respective pit stops for Max and Lewis. It appears that the Mercedes pit was hampered by the tight approach to their pit box. The two cars were fairly even going in to the pit lane, and the stop times were similar. But there was a loss of 8/10ths which was what put Max ahead after the stop.

By such margins are battles won and lost.
I don't see how. This is Bottas coming in for his stop, and while other cars have to turn right/left to get into their pitbox, for Mercedes cars it was straight entry into their pitbox. If anything, it was an advantage.

Image

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, June 18 - 20

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lh13 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:07 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:56 pm
Interesting analysis by the Sky team looking at the respective pit stops for Max and Lewis. It appears that the Mercedes pit was hampered by the tight approach to their pit box. The two cars were fairly even going in to the pit lane, and the stop times were similar. But there was a loss of 8/10ths which was what put Max ahead after the stop.

By such margins are battles won and lost.
I don't see how. This is Bottas coming in for his stop, and while other cars have to turn right/left to get into their pitbox, for Mercedes cars it was straight entry into their pitbox. If anything, it was an advantage.

https://s1.im.ge/2021/06/25/lvWvW.png
Did you watch the piece? It showed the onboards from both cars and the Mercedes was a tighter entry.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"