2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

Sieper wrote:Here is last weeks (so Styria, not Austria) race that shows it is perfectly possible to go round the outside in turn 4, also for the inside man to yield, give room.

Here it is Perez doing that for Norris. Starts (with run up) at the 25 second mark.

Completely different scenarios in my opinion… Not only is Perez compromise by Hamilton in front of him, Lando has more than half of his car ahead of Perez all through the corner.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

RaceFan1 wrote:
ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 pm
To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.
Should Perez have held a line that would have kept his car on the "racing surface" and let Lando run into him? Same for Charles LeClerc and Perez?
No, Perez should have backed off knowing that he wasn’t going to stick the move.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

darkpino wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:22 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:09 am
darkpino wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:44 am
I was watching the NASCAR race on Road America last evening and wondered why they seem to be able to run wheel to wheel there but it seems impossible in F1?
For the same reason that NASCAR is about an ice age per lap slower than an F1 car would be around that track. Because they're very different cars with very different characteristics.
I don't agree on that. The speed doesn't make a car more or less race-able per definition. If you see the (steering) inputs of the drivers I wouldn't even say racing a stockcar on a roadcourse is easier then racing a Formula car
Sorry but you´re so wrong it almost hurts :P

You´re right if you only consider cars with no aerodynamics/downforce, but with cars with downforce things change drastically. Surely you´ve hear about dirty air, that´s the reason F1 can´t fight wheel to wheel like Nascar. Nascar does not use aerodynamics to increase grip, so they don´t care about dirty air. F1 does, but that´s also the reason a F1 car would lap a Nascar in 2-3 laps maybe.

It´s the dark side of downforce. Hopefully next season the new aerodynamic rules will minimize this problem and we´ll see more wheel to wheel battles. Some of us have been waiting for this aerodynamic change to reduce dirty air for decades \:D/

dans79
dans79
395
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:38 pm
Nascar does not use aerodynamics to increase grip, so they don´t care about dirty air. F1 does, but that´s also the reason a F1 car would lap a Nascar in 2-3 laps maybe.
Nascar use aero to increase grip, it's just not nearly as sensitive as the aero components on an F1 car!
173 101 99 7

darkpino
darkpino
3
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:38 pm
darkpino wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:22 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:09 am

For the same reason that NASCAR is about an ice age per lap slower than an F1 car would be around that track. Because they're very different cars with very different characteristics.
I don't agree on that. The speed doesn't make a car more or less race-able per definition. If you see the (steering) inputs of the drivers I wouldn't even say racing a stockcar on a roadcourse is easier then racing a Formula car
Sorry but you´re so wrong it almost hurts :P

You´re right if you only consider cars with no aerodynamics/downforce, but with cars with downforce things change drastically. Surely you´ve hear about dirty air, that´s the reason F1 can´t fight wheel to wheel like Nascar. Nascar does not use aerodynamics to increase grip, so they don´t care about dirty air. F1 does, but that´s also the reason a F1 car would lap a Nascar in 2-3 laps maybe.

It´s the dark side of downforce. Hopefully next season the new aerodynamic rules will minimize this problem and we´ll see more wheel to wheel battles. Some of us have been waiting for this aerodynamic change to reduce dirty air for decades \:D/
Have you seen the race on Road America? Then you’ll notice it has not only to do with dirty air but also with leaving space for each other once you’re side by side with an other car/driver

User avatar
El Scorchio
55
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:34 pm
RaceFan1 wrote:
ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 pm
To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.
Should Perez have held a line that would have kept his car on the "racing surface" and let Lando run into him? Same for Charles LeClerc and Perez?
No, Perez should have backed off knowing that he wasn’t going to stick the move.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yup. A driver does have to use their judgement about driving into what is almost sure to be a disappearing gap. Even if you're challenging a clean driver, there's probably going to be a bad outcome. Sometimes it's better to live to fight another day. Easier said in hindsight though.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:34 pm
RaceFan1 wrote: Should Perez have held a line that would have kept his car on the "racing surface" and let Lando run into him? Same for Charles LeClerc and Perez?
No, Perez should have backed off knowing that he wasn’t going to stick the move.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yup. A driver does have to use their judgement about driving into what is almost sure to be a disappearing gap. Even if you're challenging a clean driver, there's probably going to be a bad outcome. Sometimes it's better to live to fight another day. Easier said in hindsight though.
Agreed… Part of the problem is the nature of the corner, in which it naturally drifts you wide on exit.

If Perez would have been clearly ahead of Norris, the latter would have to yield, but after watching the onboards, that’s not the case in this situation… Norris doesn’t open up his steering wheel to “push” Perez out, he has the corner and maintains the radius… If you see it from Perez perspective, he knew he was going to be wide and that he needed to back off (and get Norris in the next lap)… He simply wanted that position as soon as possible, took a big risk and didn’t pay off.

I’m all for drivers leaving space… But the overtaking driver needs to know when to back off if the gap isn’t there anymore… Unluckily in this case there was gravel… If there would have been a run off and Perez would have been able to rejoin the track without losing positions, there wouldn’t have been a penalty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RaceFan1
RaceFan1
0
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:15 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:34 pm
RaceFan1 wrote:
Should Perez have held a line that would have kept his car on the "racing surface" and let Lando run into him? Same for Charles LeClerc and Perez?
No, Perez should have backed off knowing that he wasn’t going to stick the move.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yup. A driver does have to use their judgement about driving into what is almost sure to be a disappearing gap. Even if you're challenging a clean driver, there's probably going to be a bad outcome. Sometimes it's better to live to fight another day. Easier said in hindsight though.
I know we aren't going to fix this on this forum, but I love the discussion.

I believe that Perez should've held his line and made Norris prove he's worthy of being called a world championship level driver. Can he hold a line and control his car when under pressure? Perez was ahead entering the corner. He had every right to be on that outside line within track limits. AKA, not in the gravel.

Everyone wishes that todays F1 was as good as the "old days", with side by side battles and rivalries. Without respect for track limits and fellow competitors there will be no battles. Everyone will be backing off because they can't trust the car next to them.

User avatar
Sieper
150
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

This is the point, if you want to overtake, or defend, in a car, on a tyre etc that is of comparable performance (and we all want to see that) it will always require, guts, skill, dare, fairness. But it will always also be a battle of willpower and if any of the two parties is not willing to give in it can/will go wrong. It will in those cases always be very close.

We will have to trust the stewards to then judge if any of the two parties overdid it, or both, and to what level.

There are two parties tangoing, and without that dance racing is a lot less nice to watch.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

RaceFan1 wrote:
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:15 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:34 pm

No, Perez should have backed off knowing that he wasn’t going to stick the move.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yup. A driver does have to use their judgement about driving into what is almost sure to be a disappearing gap. Even if you're challenging a clean driver, there's probably going to be a bad outcome. Sometimes it's better to live to fight another day. Easier said in hindsight though.
I know we aren't going to fix this on this forum, but I love the discussion.

I believe that Perez should've held his line and made Norris prove he's worthy of being called a world championship level driver. Can he hold a line and control his car when under pressure? Perez was ahead entering the corner. He had every right to be on that outside line within track limits. AKA, not in the gravel.

Everyone wishes that todays F1 was as good as the "old days", with side by side battles and rivalries. Without respect for track limits and fellow competitors there will be no battles. Everyone will be backing off because they can't trust the car next to them.
It’s true that we aren’t going to solve the problem… But your comment of “Norris proving his world champion material…” denotes heavy bias and is an unnecessary dig at him.

Depending on your point of view of the situation, you can see it either way… I believe that Norris proved how good he is by not backing down in the fight with Perez… Perez broke later, but by the time they were in the apex of the corner, Norris was ahead of him, therefore the corner and racing line was his… I guess the question is who is ahead and when? For me at least, the one ahead is the one who’s front axle is ahead of his rival by the apex of the corner.

One of the things that were criticized of Norris was that he was “too nice” and that he wouldn’t stick his elbows out… He is doing it now and an experience driver such as Perez shouldn’t expect Norris to yield the position when he doesn’t have to (like in this case)… Your comment about “keeping the car under control” is also not relevant and borderline “baiting”, Norris had his car under control the entire time, he didn’t made corrections or open more his steering wheel… T4 is a corner that induces understeer and the McLaren is front limited, Norris was in full steering lock in the corner, what else what he supposed to do?.

Perez on the other hand, tried to stick the move when the gap wasn’t going to be there, he knew even at corner entry that Lando was up to speed and side by side with him and that Norris was going to be ahead by the Apex (because he had the inside and racing line)… He decided to to push for the move regardless, ended up without space and going into the gravel.

I’m not saying that Perez is at fault, but he went for a move that wasn’t going to happen because he wasn’t ahead enough of Norris to claim the corner, nor did they have a tire / grip advantage since it was effectively the second lap of the race and they were on the same tire compound… The Penalty was unnecessary and it was a racing incident, not much different that many we have seeing and will see in the future… Like the much discussed Bahrain incident between Lewis and Max… Just as with Perez, Max went for the move on the outside line against Lewis, Lewis had the inside / racing line and they were side by side… Max ended up having to go off track… In that case, there was a run off, not only was Lewis not penalized, Max had to give the position back for overtaking off track.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

Palmer’s Analysis of the Incident:




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
76
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 pm
To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.
The international sporting code only requires a driver to leave a space if the driver is returning to the racing line. Norris was on the racing line when Perez went off track.

FIA INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE APPENDIX L
b) Overtaking, according to the
circumstances, may be carried out on either
the right or the left. A driver may not leave the track without
justifiable reason. More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing
line, having earlier defended his position off-
line, should leave at least one car width
between his own car and the edge of the
track on the approach to the corner. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards.
If there's another rule then please share the relevant part of the regulations and/or sporting code.

RaceFan1
RaceFan1
0
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:42 pm
RaceFan1 wrote:
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:15 pm


Yup. A driver does have to use their judgement about driving into what is almost sure to be a disappearing gap. Even if you're challenging a clean driver, there's probably going to be a bad outcome. Sometimes it's better to live to fight another day. Easier said in hindsight though.
I know we aren't going to fix this on this forum, but I love the discussion.

I believe that Perez should've held his line and made Norris prove he's worthy of being called a world championship level driver. Can he hold a line and control his car when under pressure? Perez was ahead entering the corner. He had every right to be on that outside line within track limits. AKA, not in the gravel.

Everyone wishes that todays F1 was as good as the "old days", with side by side battles and rivalries. Without respect for track limits and fellow competitors there will be no battles. Everyone will be backing off because they can't trust the car next to them.
It’s true that we aren’t going to solve the problem… But your comment of “Norris proving his world champion material…” denotes heavy bias and is an unnecessary dig at him.
I have no bias against Norris at all. Quite the opposite actually. That young man is a hell of a driver and making Ricciardo look average at best. (Nothing against Daniel, but Lando is winning the equal equipment / McLaren race at the moment.)

Car control under pressure, racecraft and understanding the big picture are world championship traits. Running fast laps help but, it's not all there is.

Accelerating and opening the wheel mid corner pushed Perez into the gravel.

The video you posted from Jolyon Palmer is dead on. We don't want to watch races that last only one corner. We want to see side by side and wheel to wheel racing. Pushing someone off track stops that. The Russell and Alonso duel was a fantastic example of what I'd like to see.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

RaceFan1 wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:42 pm
RaceFan1 wrote: I know we aren't going to fix this on this forum, but I love the discussion.

I believe that Perez should've held his line and made Norris prove he's worthy of being called a world championship level driver. Can he hold a line and control his car when under pressure? Perez was ahead entering the corner. He had every right to be on that outside line within track limits. AKA, not in the gravel.

Everyone wishes that todays F1 was as good as the "old days", with side by side battles and rivalries. Without respect for track limits and fellow competitors there will be no battles. Everyone will be backing off because they can't trust the car next to them.
It’s true that we aren’t going to solve the problem… But your comment of “Norris proving his world champion material…” denotes heavy bias and is an unnecessary dig at him.
I have no bias against Norris at all. Quite the opposite actually. That young man is a hell of a driver and making Ricciardo look average at best. (Nothing against Daniel, but Lando is winning the equal equipment / McLaren race at the moment.)

Car control under pressure, racecraft and understanding the big picture are world championship traits. Running fast laps help but, it's not all there is.

Accelerating and opening the wheel mid corner pushed Perez into the gravel.

The video you posted from Jolyon Palmer is dead on. We don't want to watch races that last only one corner. We want to see side by side and wheel to wheel racing. Pushing someone off track stops that. The Russell and Alonso duel was a fantastic example of what I'd like to see.
I disagree that opening up the steering wheel is what drove Perez towards the gravel, Perez was in the direction of the gravel way before that happened (which you can see in Palmer’s analysis and onboard video)… The references he makes to other incidents (like Max and Lewis) in Portimao is a great example of a similar situation.

The driver going on the outside when both cars are wheel to wheel approaching the braking point will most often than not brake later since now the apex for the corner is farther away… Perez didn’t complete the overtake, nor was he ahead of Norris when cornering (with Norris slightly ahead)… Just in the Max / Lewis incident, where Max yields to avoid going into the gravel, that was Perez option in this case (and he just didn’t take it).

Regarding having the car under control, managing pressure or seeing the big picture… I can see all 3 of the traits you consider for Championship Material in the incident… Norris was never not in control of the car, he actually managed Perez pressure quiet well and didn’t yield a position he didn’t have to and from a big picture perspective, he ended up in P3 at the end of the race by maintaining his P2 position for the first stint of the race.

I guess we will all have different perspectives on the situation, but I can’t see Norris mistake in this incident, he did everything he had to do / was supposed to do… He brakes late into the corner, he is not wide at the apex, full steering lock through the corner and maintains his position ahead of Perez… Perez tried to “bully” his way into the corner, took an unnecessary risk (with a faster car and the race just restarting) and ended up paying the price for it… That’s just my opinion and it’s clear that there are a lot of people that share it… Just as there are a lot of people (including the Stewards) that don’t.

But I would expect for Norris to deal with the situation exactly the same if it would happen again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

User avatar
ispano6
320
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: 2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

Post

Timo Glock had a different opinion and felt Norris should have left Perez space:
“I think you have to leave the space,” Glock told Sky Germany. “In Formula 1 it is already difficult to overtake. It should be fair to overtake on the inside as well as on the outside.

“There is no rule that says you can’t overtake on the outside in Formula 1. The person who tries knows what a dangerous situation he is putting himself in.

“In my eyes, it’s fair to give your opponent the space so that he has the chance to overtake.”
There isn't anyone who can say Perez should have known he couldn't stick the move. The truth is Norris didn't drive a line that would have avoided contact, but he certainly knew he was there. If Perez didn't go into the gravel, he would have collected Norris and essentially Norris's race could have been over. Norris is still a young driver and not as mature as Perez, so naturally he will have this type of driving style. It's reminiscent of a younger Verstappen going flat out with nothing to lose with everything to gain. Perez on the other hand, should have been more patient and simply pass Norris when DRS became available as it was more likely inevitable.