Australian GP 2008

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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axle wrote:
Does anyone know for sure how many retirements were down to SECU related problems? I think those teams are going to lodge a complaint with Whiting, and I think that they would be fully justified.

Chris
None surely. Come on, they've been testing day in day out with it for months...

let me guess at what you're suggesting, the code looks like...
IF Engine = Ferrari
Goto FAIL MODE.
LOL! I dont believe that is the case, but when 0/6 finish, one has to look at the "common" denominator.

I was more interested in knowing how many teams were still having trouble, and thus diverting valuable development resources to a system that was completely un-necessary from the very beginning, while the SECU developing team seems to have zero issues.

Call it a curiosity comparison, and answer if you can.

Chris

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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Ray wrote:
Conceptual wrote:
Well, the crappy drivers did become obvious, but Heidfeld as well as Alonso looked VERY good without TC. Rememeber, passing is very low in F1 due to the aero, not TC, so to say that someone only moved up because of retirements is like saying that they only moved up because their car is 2 seconds a lap quicker. Bourdais was on a new track, with last years car (that was NOT designed to run without TC, with a Ferrari engine that I am sure are the lowest performers on the dyno because I also sure that Ferrari keeps the best ones for themselves), in a high pressure debut and did fantastic. He may have landed a podium had he not retired.
Sorry. I didn't mean I disagreed totally. Yes, the lack of TC brought the cream to the top. But I think it showed who was worse rather than who was better.

I do however disagree completely with you thoughts on Bourdais. :D Yeah, he done good. But I highly doubt that if Red Bull, Ferrari AND Toyota had been around at the finish, Bourdais would have held the same position. Not to mention his teammate still in the race. And it is very reasonable to say that he finished there only because of retirements. It's happened alot before in the past, and I don't see how it doesn't/can't apply here. I'm not suggesting he isn't good, his four ChampCar titles prove that. I just don't think he would have been in the same finishing position had half the field not retired.
The same could be said of ALL finishers, so what is your point?

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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Conceptual wrote:
Ray wrote:
Conceptual wrote:
Well, the crappy drivers did become obvious, but Heidfeld as well as Alonso looked VERY good without TC. Rememeber, passing is very low in F1 due to the aero, not TC, so to say that someone only moved up because of retirements is like saying that they only moved up because their car is 2 seconds a lap quicker. Bourdais was on a new track, with last years car (that was NOT designed to run without TC, with a Ferrari engine that I am sure are the lowest performers on the dyno because I also sure that Ferrari keeps the best ones for themselves), in a high pressure debut and did fantastic. He may have landed a podium had he not retired.
Sorry. I didn't mean I disagreed totally. Yes, the lack of TC brought the cream to the top. But I think it showed who was worse rather than who was better.

I do however disagree completely with you thoughts on Bourdais. :D Yeah, he done good. But I highly doubt that if Red Bull, Ferrari AND Toyota had been around at the finish, Bourdais would have held the same position. Not to mention his teammate still in the race. And it is very reasonable to say that he finished there only because of retirements. It's happened alot before in the past, and I don't see how it doesn't/can't apply here. I'm not suggesting he isn't good, his four ChampCar titles prove that. I just don't think he would have been in the same finishing position had half the field not retired.
The same could be said of ALL finishers, so what is your point?
Because finishing when 15 out of 22 cars retire is not racing to a good finish. It's the benefit of attrition. He wasn't slicing through the field to get to that spot. Hell, Massa had two wrecks, Kimi threw it off the road twice, Piquet retired, DC wrecked himself into Massa, Ferrari was out totally with two engine failures Webber retired, Trulli had an electrical failure, Fisi was punted at the first corner.....need I gone on. He didn't pass them on the track. He did so cause they retired. That's not racing to a good finish, that's driving around and benefiting from anothers misfortune. I will give him credit for keeping his nose clean and not wrecking anyone. But I will not give him credit for getting to his spot on skill. It was luck.

And no, that can't be said of all finishers. Not even close. Lewis EARNED his spot on the the top step by absolutely blowing the competition off the track. Not by swerving around the debris and saying look at me I done good! He raced. Bourdais drove.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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Ray wrote:
And no, that can't be said of all finishers. Not even close. Lewis EARNED his spot on the the top step by absolutely blowing the competition off the track. Not by swerving around the debris and saying look at me I done good! He raced. Bourdais drove.
What about Alonso, Heidfeld, Rosberg and so on?

All finishers benefitted from the attrition, I don't see how one did it any better, or worse, than the other?

Oh, I forgot. In F1, you can't just score points... You have to score points with STYLE, or they don't count, right?

Chris

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Ray
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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axle wrote:
Ray wrote:
Conceptual wrote: I am very happy with the loss of TC, as it made the good drivers shine.

Chris
I disagree. It made the crappy drivers glaringly obvious. It also ruined quite a few others overall race by them being so crappy without TC. Like Massa. He's absolutely worthless without it and right or wrong he ruined DCs race. He should have been further up and not been racing with the likes of DC in a FERRARI for cripes sake!

I think Bourdais did well because of all the retirements. Not because he's just that good. Look at Alonso. Do you honestly think Fisi would have wrung that much from that car? I highly doubt it.

Piquet. Go. Home.

And McLaren are miles ahead because of the close relationship of the designers of the common ECU. It's so blatantly obvious, yet the press is trying to shoo everyone away from that fact.
Sorry, you'd like TC back to make the less talented drivers *look* better? WTF? I'd rather the cream rose to the top and the over-rated were binned...Without TC is best, bet Kimi is glad they got to keep Anti-Stall! I honestly can't see ANY downside to making the drivers, drive. If some are cr@p/out of their depth then maybe they should drive elsewhere?!

As for the McLaren ECU...oh please, all the teams knew the specs etc before they got the unit, which was after the FIA technicians had ratified it. The only "advantage" McLaren had was that is fitted their existing looms and positioning (I expect, unconfirmed but logical)...and do you really think that would hamper all the other teams for long? Nope. The ECU is basic, no loopholes as the FIA get the datalogs. The secret to McLarens' perceived advantage atm is much more likely to be in the diff and suspension setup, not the ECU. Mapping is mapping and every team has a genius at work mapping the engines....
Where did I say I wanted TC back? I never entertained the idea. I just said I don't think it highlighted the good drivers, I think it highlighted the bad ones. Not that it shouldn't be banned. I absolutely love not having TC. A race car that isn't fully in control of the driver isn't a race car. Matter of fact, I think power steering is a little much in most race cars, maybe not in F1 I think they need it more so than anyone need it. So. WTF to you axle :lol:

Yes it does benefit McLaren to have developed the ECU used by all teams. It's been said before, Renault couldn't even get their engine started. And do you think when they call 1-800-McLaren for tech support, MES isn't going to use that experience and go back to the race team and let them know? I would bet a significant amount of my paycheck that they do. Changing something as complicated as an electrical component that controls your whole system is going to take lots of time, effort, and money to adapt to. Much less get good as your supplier at using it.

And if you think mapping is mapping you obviously haven't dealt with a Ford EMC versus a Chevrolet or Dodge ECM. Just to test your theory I would like you to take a Dodge ECU and a Ford TCM and get them to play nice. Load the Ford engine map into that Dodge ECU, still running the same engine with all the wiring mated correctly, and see how well it works. You won't have a chance in hell and you and anyone who has tried knows it. They had to redo their whole control systems from stem to stern to redo the code for the tranny, the injector drivers, the spark maps, the tranny mode selections on the steering wheels. I highly doubt they are even coded in the same language (computer wise). Who knows how MES structures their ECUs? Then they had to optimize it, and in a car like an F1 car that's going to be a huge undertaking. I would guess it would take every bit of a year to get it to work, function correctly reliably, and then when that is done try an make it competitive. Keep in mind your competition does not have to over come any of these hurdles, and that is a huge part of a race team. You can't won a race if your car won't start.

And who knows. Maybe they use xml? :lol:
Last edited by Ray on 17 Mar 2008, 03:31, edited 2 times in total.

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Ray
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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Conceptual wrote:
Ray wrote:
And no, that can't be said of all finishers. Not even close. Lewis EARNED his spot on the the top step by absolutely blowing the competition off the track. Not by swerving around the debris and saying look at me I done good! He raced. Bourdais drove.
What about Alonso, Heidfeld, Rosberg and so on?

All finishers benefitted from the attrition, I don't see how one did it any better, or worse, than the other?

Oh, I forgot. In F1, you can't just score points... You have to score points with STYLE, or they don't count, right?

Chris
No. I don't think that. None of who you mentioned qualified as badly as he did. They all passed a few cars to get where they were and were constantly quicker than him over the whole race. Alonso, in case you didn't noticed, drove his fuc*ing heart out to get where he was. Heidfeld and Rosberg have been very consistent front runners or boxing above thier weight so to speak. He got where he was because of attrition. All the others passed front runners to get up there.

I'm not hating the guy at all. I just think too much credit has been given. 68% of the field retired, and I don't think that's a small thing.

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Ray
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Predictions

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I wrote:Unless Lewis is sandbagging, or BMW are light on fuel, I'm completely unimpressed with Hamiltons pole. Kubica went off in a big way and Lewis only bettered him by a little over a tenth. Kubica could very well win this race.
Boy was I ever wrong! :lol: Hammy really showed them how it's done. =D>

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

Re: [GP Australia 2008] Predictions

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Ray wrote:After review of the incident between DC and Massa, DC caused the whole thing. Massa had his ass covered completely. The only way Massa wasn't going to pass him is if he ran into him, which he duly did.
Not so sure I agree that it was entirely DC's fault... That corner has a very fast approach and if the outside person (Coulthard) has committed to turning in - on the normal racing line - they have no alternative other than going off the track.

Massa however looked like he made the big lunge right at the end - Coulthard was 1/4 of the war around the corner (degrees-wise) while Massa had only just started to turn when they connected.

Definitely not a 100% blame case. The guy behind is usually expected to do the lions share of the 'avoiding' since he has a miles better view of it all. Massa was pretty careless no matter how much he says DC turned in on him. He looked like he just did the close eyes and pray routine.

R

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Ray
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Predictions

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Rob W wrote:
Ray wrote:After review of the incident between DC and Massa, DC caused the whole thing. Massa had his ass covered completely. The only way Massa wasn't going to pass him is if he ran into him, which he duly did.
Not so sure I agree with you on that... That corner has a very fast approach meaning the outside person (Coulthard) has committed to turning in - on the normal racing line - and had no alternative other than going off the track.

Massa however looked like he made the big lunge right at the end - Coulthard was 1/4 of the war around the corner (degrees-wise) while Massa had only just started to turn when they connected.

Definitely not a 100% blame case. The guy behind is usually expected to do the lions share of the 'avoiding' since he has a ton better view of it all. Massa was pretty careless no matter how much he says DC turned in on him.

R
I can see your point. It's a very good one. But from what I saw from Felipes onboard (with my bad eyesight :lol: ) when they were at the corner Massas' front wheels were ahead of DCs' rear wheels. Advantage. He clearly outbraked DC and was in no danger of overcooking the corner and sliding wide. And Massa dived across the curbing because DC was turning into the corner as if he weren't there. HE hit Massa. I think Massa had him covered. DC should have yielded the corner to him. In his case last year with Wurz, he had no chance of making that pass and could have very well killed Wurz. Massa at least was alongside him when he pulled that move. Wurz was halfway through the corner when DC arrived under braking.

Either way I'm absolutely dumbfounded DCs car was damaged as much as it was, and Massa didn't appear to be at all. :shock:

The biggest wow factor I got during the race was how lucky Timo was to walk away from his wreck without a broken back. He had an angel on his shoulder for sure. They need to fix that corner. Kubica could have very well done the same when he went wide.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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Conceptual wrote:Oh, I forgot. In F1, you can't just score points... You have to score points with STYLE, or they don't count, right?
Right. Unless you want to become Schumi Second Part. The camera did not follow Hamilton, see? ;)

I dare to say that Hamilton still needs that "little bit" you mention: style. That is, a way of his own to be remembered, the kind of anecdotes you can tell to friends around a beer. Something like "Remember how Lewis won XXXX GP in 20XX, when he was in 10th place, under the rain, with both tires flat spotted?" :)

I also dare to say that I have the impression that winning on a dominant car has no... grace, if I may take the idiom from spanish. I might be in a minory in this point, but certainly I'm not alone.

Judging by the string of GPs that started last year and culminated in the Australian GP, either Hamilton is the greatest genius in driving history (that's a possibility) or Hamilton has had it very easy from the point of view of hitting the right team at the right time (which is another possibility).

Of course, I recognize that's a thing easily said by someone like me that hasn't seen him working his ass since he was 5 years old but I've seen no purpose, no style in him... yet.

At least Schumi had the ridiculous jump and the finger pointing to the sky and you knew all the time he was making history (and he also knew it). At least Kimi, our respected WDC, has the flattest voice in the universe and he is the coolest of the cool, and you know, and he knows he's the best money can buy. At least Alonso has his absurd moves and his frequent hairdos and, for a while, the fingers numbering the races he had won, in dramatic style, almost like a rebel promise. At least with Kubitza you can tell to your girlfriend that this very morning you met the driver with the largest nose in the universe, larger than Alain Prost's. :) I mean, every person has a purpose and a way. Hamilton has been a little flat in this department.

I might be wrong, but I feel that Hamilton still has to develop something of his own. He has the chance to do it, of course. I think sometimes if he shouldn't do something after the races. I mean besides hugging Ron Dennis or his father. :) Hugging Nico Rosberg was a start... but he cannot do it every GP.

However, hey, do not take my point of view. I think personality is a thing that costs, or so it seems that is what happens in F1.

Now, I recognize that up to this day, Ron Dennis has been in the spotlight. It's hard to shine when you have to duck because your boss is under attack. Even taking that in account, Hamilton has played more the role of McLaren jockey than the role of a personality that defines an epoch of racing. That's a curious thing for me, he has a record better than Fangio, Hill, Clark or even Schumacher, but no so curious if you think about the "legacy" he would left if he disappeared tomorrow: very little.

That (I know, Ray) could be lack of style or a style so subtle that I don't get it. We'll see, this year seems to belong to him, unless Kimi pulls another "Räikkönen", like last year. :)
Ciro

mike
mike
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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i think hamilton needs a challenge for us 2 see whether he is the grestest so far in his f1 career he mostly qualified in the top 4 and never have close to any reliablity problems nor extreme bad luck and he always hav a championship wining car
i guess what i m saying is that had hamilton won the 2007 drivers world championship we would be only talking about the stats and not how he won it
if say mclaren stuffer for a few years than we can really see what he is made of the truth is no1 will hav the luck to keep his stats high enough 4 any1 to remember him unless he fight in a struggling situation like kimi, and fernando or even schumacher.
it is not the question of when and wat, it is the question of how
and for the australian GP i think hamilton did good but ppl would hav celebrated more had kimi got third. and lookin at the future i think ferrari can do it this year if kimi can put his 15th into a winning position with hamilton on pole i think they will win

icef1mkd
icef1mkd
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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About the Bourdais debate...
I think what was impressive here was his steady
and mature driving avoiding the chaos. He never
looked intimidated, nor nervous on track.
Neither defencive, nor agressive, apparently looking
to finish in his debut. So, I'd like to see him attacking
and flying in oreder to prove his point that he belongs here.
"You will never know the feeling of a driver
when winning a race. The helmet hides feelings
that cannot be understood."
Ayrton Senna, November 1988

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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How can the driver who is about to collect the record for most GP starts screw up and miss red lights? Reubens had his Honda in a place long forgotten, was definitely going to get in the points, and then chuck it away with running red lights? And not that he wasn't aware of it, others had suffered exactly the same fate in Montreal in '07. Hamilton was flawless, it was a virtual replay of how Schumacher won so many races. Heikki proved he belongs in a McLaren, and he looks very good.
Award for "If I didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all" goes to poor Mark Webber. Bloody shame.
Award for worst driver goes to Massa for wrecking twice. First, all by himself in the first lap, and later by challenging DC. Just in what rule book does it say that a car trailing, his front wheel only up to the other's rear wheel, has right-of-way over a car ahead?
Drive of the race is shared, between Alonso, Hamilton, and Bourdais, with special mention to Alonso for getting the absolutely best of what his car had to give on Sunday.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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Ray
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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Can someone pleas explain to me exactly what constitutes yielding a spot to someone passing you? Cause for fuc*s sake no one here seems to think like me. DC lost that corner and cut off Massa. Then was childish about it! Are they racing Formula 1 cars or playing goddamn pattycake?

Massa:
Outbraked DC after drafting him down the straight
Had the preferred inside line for quite a ways after initial hit of the brakes
Took away DCs choice of turn in on the preferred line of the corner
Was more than halfway up the side of DC into the corner

DC:
Got outbraked
turned in on Massa
blamed his shitty driving on Massa
Cutting him off made it look like Massa rammed him, where was Massa supposed to go?

Massa had every advantage on DC into that corner and he shut the door on him. He did nothing wrong and I don't see how anyone can blame him for what happened. DC has no room or right to DEMAND Massa take blame for this. He wasn't even remotely close to Wurz last year. Hell Wurz was already turning in, almost to the apex, when DC hit him. Almost killed the guy in the process. I know it's a different corner, and different circumstances. But he had none of the advantages over Wurz that Massa had over him I'm losing respect for him more and more every race.

West
West
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Re: [GP Australia 2008] Race analysis

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I agree with you Ray. Who is he to pin the blame on Massa?
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