Spanish GP 2008

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ben_watkins
ben_watkins
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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The news is that Heikki had a 27G impact..

http://www.f1technical.net/news/8969

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx ... 5&PO=42465


The team has established that Heikki’s speed was approximately 240km/h when the tyre deflated and about 130km/h when he hit the tyre barrier. He experienced a 27g deceleration.
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Miguel
Miguel
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Mmm... 27 g's doesn't sound like much. Relatively speaking, of course. I don't want to experience those when I go back home a bit later.

There was a story running today on Marca (informative, truthful, objective...) about the tire wall there. Apparently, the lower tires are dug 15cm in the ground, and they use different tire width in consecutive rows. They have apparently also put two more tire rows. However... this doesn't match nicely with the gp.com article Ciro linked earlier. Furthermore, I've also read this only on informative, objective and truthful marca.

The story also highligts the role of the Maintenance Chief. Although I'm sure he's doing an excellent job, with the professionalisation of safety measures and the extra care the FIA will put in the prime testing track all the measures marca attribute to him are most likely hype. I really doubt the FIA will allow anybody to do stuff like that without testing and on his own. Furthermore, didn't the FIA develop a new Tire Wall for Monza 2007?

Marca link (Spanish)

PS: I'll try to find pictures of the older Tire Wall at Campsa.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

Miguel
Miguel
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Beforehand, sorry for replying to myself, but the marca story may be fake. If one visits the Circuit de Catalunya in google maps, the new "tilke chicane" is not yet in, so the layout is pre-2007. Making maximum zoom and going to Turn 9, the tire wall is uniform and measures ~3mm. At that zoom, 20m - 2.3 cm. Assuming a tire has a diametre of around 0.5m (20 inches), we get a 5-tire deep wall.

By the way, as I've watched F1 live in that very corner, I'd like to add that section is particularly uphil. Much more than what it seems on the TV. I'd estimate a climbing rate of around 7%. That factor should have helped deceleration on the gravel trap a lot.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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watching the video several times it was clear that the trap did not slow the car considerably. other sources confirmed that the impact was at over 200 km/h. the 130 figure was probably a mix up with miles. the tyre wall slowed the car in 100 milliseconds over a distance of approximately 2 m. I reckon that the nose actually speared through and impacted on the concrete barrier.

all together I think that barriers should be improved to the technology used by Indy (SAFER) or deployed by the FIA/FOM at Paul Ricard.

Image
Image

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h ... e%26sa%3DG

this is a good but older article on barriers

to appreciate how much progress regarding safety has been made in F1 it is interesting to compare the US figures

http://www.autoracing1.com/MarkC/2002/0918Injuries.asp

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article. ... 79&FS=TECH

http://www.tecpro.us/f1/docs/tecpro_us.pdf


On a different note I think that McLaren need to take a look on their wheel rims. Premiere showed a video during the race which took footage from the air box camera of Hamiltons shunt at the Nürburgring 2007 and Heikki's shunt at the race. the two videos were cut in the middle and shown simultan eously. Heikis left wheel collapsed and Hamilton's right wheel in a very similar way. even the impact comes pretty much at the same time. it sure looks like these rims are dangerous. perhaps the FIA needs to set a standard for structural integrity testing. they look at flexible wings for this reason. Peter Sauber pulled out of a race for doubts over wings. why can McLaren risk the lives of their drivers with dodgy wheels?

Further there is criticism over at grandprix.com forum regarding the long delay in getting medical help to Heikki. I do agree with that. marshalls were pretty uselessly trying to extract the car from under the tyres. they should have a tractor near and have the car extracted within 30 seconds in my view. that spot is very likely to see a similar incident. F1 should not only deploy one doctor from a central facility where it takes 3 minutes to get to the driver. they should either deploy the guy per helicopter during the race so he can be dropped onto the scene in seconds or they should have medical emergency help around the track at selected marshalling points.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Miguel
Miguel
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Thanks for the links, Whiteblue. The pdf is also very interesting. One thing I didn't like, though, is the "track owners are required not to discuss safety details" bit. It's like publishing a scientific paper with just the results, but without the method. How can we trust the results? Or even better: how can we improve the results if we don't understand the method?

Regarding SAFER, I think it would have been *extremely* dangerous had Heikki crashed into SAFER barriers. SAFER seems excellent for ovals, due to the impact angles involved, but I fear it has too little travel for more perpendicular crashes as seen here.

I feel somewhat dubious about the TecPro barrier. I mean, these blocks look a bit like a lego ensemble. Wouldn't these blocks move (and not transfer energy in the whole row) if a car crashed at about 140 km/h?. Otherwise, it looks like a nice idea, especially since it seems we would no longer see drivers under the tires. This aspect was especially discouraging in Heikki's crash.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Miguel, excellent remarks. I had my own doubts about the suitability of SAFER in head on crashes. if the nose penetrates between foam elements they would not be of much use. I believe the TecPro are actually very good. Rotational molding would be an excellent choice for very thick walled polymer elements, much better than blow molding. the metal lining and foam filling seem to be also well thought out. these elements are tied with multiple safety belts from very strong fibers such as aramid which they use for bullet proof vests. I am sure it would be an improvement on tyres.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Miguel
Miguel
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Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Spanish GP 2008

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This picture, couresy of "El Pais" is what disturbed me so much:
Image

I don't know how can a car end up so deep in the tires. I even suspect Heikki was knocked unconscious by the barrier itself, and not the decceleration. Curiously, all the crash tests shown in the TV don't show the car digging under the barrier. Is the barrier in a suboptimal angle?
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Get well Heikki, it was scary for awhile there, and we all feared for your safety. You're a cool person and a competent racer, I hope to see you racing in Turkey.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Image
Tecpro configuration for high impact > 140 km/h

Image

ironically they have tecpro barriers at the new chicane in Montmelo

I hope Heikki recovers soon and they stop making those compromises in dangerous places.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Re: Spanish GP 2008

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DC wasn't at fault for the collision with Timo. He very directly prevented him from passing him on the inside. However, his driving in the following straight, completely out of character for the line to the next corner, he drove Timo into the grass. I cannot forgive him for such a dangerous move. The collision was not his fault, but there is no reason for him to have driven Timo into the grass afterwards. The lack of vision in his mirrors is bullshit. Lots of other passes happened without incident, and he needs to talk to his engineer if he can't see out of them. Quick Nick passed Fisi without incident, why can't DC do the same as Fisi and realize that he's been outbraked/whatever and just concede that he's been beaten and try to pass them back instead of causing them to hit him? His attitude is that if you try to pass him, you'd better be 15 feet ahead at the brakeing zone or he's going to run you off the road or give you no choice but to hit him. I think that he knew Button had the better of him in Bahrain and seeing that decided to close the door on him and left him no choice but to lock the brakes trying to avoid hitting DC. He gave him room, Button committed and then DC very stupidly planted himself in the way and took any chance of Button avoiding him away completely. Button had to have thought, "Right I've got him now" and then "OH --- he's closed the door and I can't stop". That's why he locked the brakes and was struggling to hang onto the car before the contact was made. It's amazing how childish he was about it saying he and Button were friends and why did he hit me. Lame.

He needs to either fix his mirrors, his attitude, or he needs to hang it up. He's been hit damn near every race this year when being passed, and with the exception of Timo it's been his fault entirely.

Heikki is very lucky to have come away uninjured. That very well could have been bad. Alonso showed just how good he is, and how much Renault have improved. Couldn't be prouder of a man everyone seems to have lost respect for and doubt his abilities against a pampered rookie. McLaren are slipping badly because they have no one of Alonso caliber to develop. If you need proof, look at his current car and see where they were, and where they are now.

The most dangerous thing I saw was when DC came to have the flat left rear changed. The guy on the wheelgun had no helmet on! How in the hell could they have overlooked that?! I'm very surprised that no one has mentioned it in the media and that they haven't gotten a steep fine for such a silly mistake to make.

RedMaple
RedMaple
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Joined: 05 Mar 2008, 21:47
Location: Maple, Canada

Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Obviously DC has lost some speed and isn't as sharp as he could be. I also suspect that he may be braking sooner into the corners than those behind him. It may explain why Massa and Button thought they had a chance on the inside and why Glock hit DC rear tire.

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Ray wrote:McLaren are slipping badly because they have no one of Alonso caliber to develop. If you need proof, look at his current car and see where they were, and where they are now.
McLaren are also $100M short

of where they were last season. Ferrari themselves reckoned that without the safety car episodes, Hamilton would've trailed them 15 secs at the finish line - that's not a drastic gap per lap, certainly not a comfortable cushion. No telling whether that figure includes running relatively "lean" towards the end as Ferrari seemed to do, though. Kovalainen was in a very good position and was set to pit from lap 28-29 ... at a race which totals 66. There's no telling what he might've done short filling for two quick stints (and getting to play with tyres) or going long with the prime tyre. My impression is that this could've put him very close to the top.

Alonso did a stunning qualy lap and the gap to the pole indicated that the team has a very good understanding and appreciation of the difference in performance between them and Ferrari. Barcelona was a race beyond the safety margins for them, though. Fernando's race strategy was pretty much shot by the compromise in the fuel load and apart from the SC strain I have a distinct feeling that they were asking a bit too much of their engine as well (there has been talk of a slight but notable power disadvantage). I think Symonds said they've gained 0.2 - 0.3 secs on the others. There's precious little to go on in agreeing or disagreeing with him based on Barcelona alone.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 50205.html

Charlie Whiting thinks that all the safety measures were working out fine but that TecPro barriers with 4 mm steel sheet incorporated could have been an improvement compared to the tyre wall. =D>
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Miguel
Miguel
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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Could you please explain briefly what Whiting's points are? google translate seems to struggle in german to english translations (I can barely read french, the only other alternative), and there are some "no's" and "yes" that hamper my understanding of the text. Thanks in advance, as I won't have connection during the weekend.

What I understood is "Whiting is surprised by the outbursts" and that he thinks "tire barriers worked fine" because it was a slow accident and that heikki wasn't buried. In any case, Whiting seems supportive of installing both asphalt runoffs and TecPro barriers.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Spanish GP 2008

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I found parts of the original Whiting interview which was on Autosport's subscription section on another board.
My overall thoughts are that it was just a crash," says the FIA's safety delegate and race director Charlie Whiting. "A guy went off, hit the wall quite hard, and came out of it unhurt, which was good. It happens all the time. I don't really understand why everyone has talked about it so much!

"But yes, it was a fairly spectacular crash. I don't know what the causes were, that's another story altogether. But in terms of the effects, it was very pleasing. Everything did exactly what we would expect. Having said that, I think we can always learn something."

Perhaps the most important safety development of recent years is not an item that has a direct bearing on the driver's health, but rather has provided the FIA with valuable guidance on what actually works.

The accident data recorder now fitted to each car - in testing as well as at Grands Prix - provides details that previously could only be estimated. Every major accident can be studied, and the results used in future developments.

"It tells us what happened, as opposed to guessing," says Whiting. "We used to look at accidents and say 'he didn't slow down at all, did he?' People shouldn't say anything until they know what they're talking about it. We don't say anything until we analyse things, because appearances can be deceptive.

"Heikki's was a big accident, but it was a long accident, in that it was over 100 milliseconds, which is bloody long by crash pulse standards. Hence the reason for his very low deceleration of 27g.
"The speed at which he lost control is in the data recorder, but once he's lost control, you don't have wheel speeds any more. But you can calculate the velocity from the deceleration, and come up with a figure that is not only accurate, but also quite surprising.

"Anyone who says that the car didn't slow down at all, that's complete nonsense. The fact of the matter is that the car lost control at approximately 260km/h, and hit the wall at approximately 135 km/h."

Contrary to what many people thought, the McLaren did not go under the belt or the tyres. It actually went through the belt and into the tyres, in other words it did not go underneath the tyre wall and lift the whole lot up, it buried itself in them and lifted only those above the chassis.

"If you've got something relatively sharp like a nose, the fact that the tyres are bolted together is going to mean nothing. That's why we need conveyor belts. They are OK, but we know that at high speed, they can still be penetrated.

"Over the last two and half years we've had a very intensive programme going on with regard to very high speed barriers. This was highlighted by the first test we did, with a trolley with an F1 nose on it, when we saw how easily it penetrated even the thickest available conveyor belt.

"Heikki's car split the belt about 40cm above the ground. That's where it first hit, and it penetrated and then went through the tyres. When I looked at the pictures I thought it had gone under it. But when you look at it closely, it didn't actually go under it, which is another example of why I think it's important to get as many facts as possible before saying anything."

The accident has put an extra focus on the barriers developed by TecPro, which were seen at Monza in 2006. The fact that the GPDA chose that weekend to make a fuss about safety at the track - seemingly oblivious to the fact that a major development was being introduced - did not go down well with the FIA.

"We put the TecPro barriers in front of tyres at the second chicane and Parabolica. They incorporate a 4mm thick layer of steel, and that stops the nose actually going through it, and consequently it uses the tyres as opposed to actually penetrating them, as it were. So the things we can learn from last weekend are that asphalt could have performed better, and a TecPro barrier could have prevented penetration."
I have now edited my retranslation English-German-English in favour of the original version 3.5.2008 12 am.

my personal view is that the 4 mm steel sheet inside the ThecPro element with the foam and the thick polymer drum will be a very good retension element and capable of absorbing much energy while it is pierced.

from this interview it is still unclear when the 135 km/h speed applied. for me it reads like that was the moment when the nose cone hit the concrete wall behind the tyre barrier. I would be interested to know how much the gravel trap slowed the car before the tyre wall slowed it down. from that information we can conclude a great deal. for instance if Webber's request for wider gravel traps at turn 9 makes sense. or would it be better to optimise the energy absorbing barrier by putting one or two layers of tecpro there.

Massa said:
... The only unusual feature was that the car went under and through the tyre barrier and so did his head. That is a bit scary and I think the FIA should look into the construction of the whole barrier system. ...
it sounds like the TecPro will get some more promotion
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)