ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

Post here information about your own engineering projects, including but not limited to building your own car or designing a virtual car through CAD.
arrowscsrs
arrowscsrs
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Joined: 14 Mar 2013, 20:32

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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Manoah2u wrote:so let me get this right.

you want to invest € 100,000,000 in something is essentially something kids play with, scaled up,
have 33 days left, and have raised just € 9,00 euros.

You want digital control through internet on remote controlled rc cars [that run petrol] and 'race',
to gain a FAKE driving experience whilst controlling real fake f1 cars.

you expect there are going to be 'championships' about this or actual races [with prize money?],
suggesting you need a lot of transport costs to bring these 'simulators' from track to track.
which suggests you need 'teams' and sponsors and entry's with fees to make it a actual competition.

all along there are already simulators doing the same, with the same effect, without rc cars, but the exact
same effect. game competitions, from finalfantasy, dead or alive, to racing games.

in the meanwhile, this entire system is fake and you can invest quite simply by going REAL racing in a carting
competition, raceday on a track, or actually start your own driving career.
whilst there are lots of rc-races around already, so it's nothing new.

if you want any 'business success', i suggest you develop technology to implement a live screen into a rc controller,
and make it connect flawlessly to the rc device. anything else is uninteresting for the market.

to be honest, if i look at the vid and your claims and your 'generated' 'investment', with promises that everything will
be 'given back', it sounds more like a nigerian fraud mail with a western face on it, essentialy, it seems like a total con.

it would seem a little more trustworthy if you actually took the effort of doing a good video, instead of a household webcam recording mixed with some internet vids whereof i'm suspicious you hold no rights to thus copyrighting the material.

If you want to get 100 million investment, atleast invest some of your own and start buying a proper business suit, proper video background instead of some fence or rental appartment, and shoot some HD RC vids and cockpit simulator material,
and show why this investment would top out any game investment right now, keeping in mind next-gen consoles are just around the corner, with interactivity in mind.

i claim this is BS, and am highly suspicious, but let's show some actual effort put into the project outside of web browsing and copy-pasting and then provide some material that makes it in any way plausible it is commercially interesting.




I am afraid you got it all wrong.

To start with,

We do NOT want to invest 100,000,000 euros.
It will NOT be a toy.
We DO have raised 9 euros, but the project was never meant to succeed.

The 100,000,000 claim is an obscene figure we came up just adding a zero following the biggest amount ever reported been raised in crowd founding.
100,000,000 in our case equals to a zillion.
The reason of this first contact with its potential customers / supporter / founders, was to get them acquainted with the concept.

Coming from nowhere expecting 100,000,000 individuals to vote for you is insane.
But hearing a project asking 100,000,000 euros, not sure of this a joke or for real, one would definitely go and see at least what this is all about.
So the figure was the joke for the people to visit the page and watch the project.

From what you are saying I cannot tell which part of the concept is not clear to you, so I will reply on point by point.

The race car models:
Will be scaled down race cars running on benzene, that will be radio controlled from a cockpit simulator inside an on the spot control room. The user will drive the car using the visuals of an onboard camera broadcasting live footage that gets projected on a screen inside the control room positioned in frond of the cockpit. The system will employ TV broadcasting technology.
Along with audio/visual input, we will have data on the models road behaviour that we will replicate in the control room.

Experience:
I cannot but agree that anything other than the real thing is a fake. That is unless you are behind the actual steering wheel inside the actual race car, there is no way you can feel the rush of a race, or to rephrase it, the rush you get from inside an actual race car cannot be 100 percent simulated.
Never been a race car driver, but I think this is the reality.

Some points though.
Can you drive an F1 race car to its true limits?
Will you not be intimidated by fear of crash or that of personal injury?
Also,
Can you afford to have or to rent a real F1 race car?
Can you afford racing you real F1 race car?
Do you have people to race against with their F1 cars?

How “real” a cockpit simulator can get?
According to all F1 teams, them having their drivers practising in cockpit simulators as part of their regular preparation for a race, pretty much so.

Summing all above together would you prefer racing

We offer FAKE experience on non virtual race car models
In real races that will make them winners. And the joy of winning is always real.

Championships may be organized from the participants or between ARROWS racing clubs members. As with the prizes, this is something to be done in the manner the RC and kart races do it.

No transportation of equipment to take place. Each race track will be self sustainable.
Separate ARROWS race clubs may exist all over the world.


Simulations doing the same:
Check http://www.i-way.fr and you will understand the level of simulation we are considering.


Thereafter I cannot understand what you mean by:

“if you want any 'business success', I suggest you develop technology to implement a live screen into a RC controller, and make it connect flawlessly to the RC device. Anything else is uninteresting for the market.”



As with regards to your final two paragraphs, the contents of which we of course fully reject as to the suggestions made, I just want to clarify for the benefit of other reading us, that I am not asking you to finance us; I am asking you to consider our concept and evaluate it.

This project has nothing to do with money, its’ sole purpose is to register interest, to create a basic pool of followers and supporters for our campaigns to follow.
But most importantly to create trust with the people that choose to follow us.

That is why the target amount is so ridiculously high, so that anyone would understand that this is an impossible task to accomplish.
This coupled with the fact that the amount required voting is just 1 Euro, but most importantly that is why the campaign was made on Indiegogo an independent third party, evidences our true intentions.

The video is a funny way to visualize the concept of the project.
Indeed we never asked for permission to use either the footage or the music, but we have declared that, as we had to, in You Tube where the video was and still is posted.
We have never been reprimanded for doing so, while neither we ever tried to hide our sources.

As to my Western face the reason I put it in (apart of my good looks) was that you can have me talking to you in first person and check me out.


PS. I can appreciate you being cautious in the net, but at least make sure you got the facts right. It appears that you have neither read the written section of the campaign, nor you noticed that the campaign is fixed, i.e. that the amounts pledged will only get cashed out if the campaign matures that is if 100,000,000 euros are raised, an obvious impossibility.

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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IMO current F1 simms do not simulate the real car in a number of areas.
On another thread we are already talking about one area,the power steering on at least two teams simms, which I do not think come close, it is also impossible to reproduce the g forces.
However, simms are useful to the teams and their drivers in lots of other ways.

F1 computer games do not come even close to reality, no matter what the armchair geeks think.

You are adding to this a scale car which reacts totaly differently to a full size F1 car.
You are also expecting to use tv technology at near ground level where lense angles, depth of field, focus and frame latency all have to be exactly correct. If not the sim driver will not see a proper view.

From this I conclude that at present there is no way that you can accurately simulate the F1 driving experience.

theblackangus
theblackangus
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Joined: 02 Aug 2007, 01:03

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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A13EX_f wrote:clearly you are going to go ahead with something even though everyone is telling you not to bother.

one new problem i've spotted is that you are planning on making 1/3 scale cars, once you've made these where are you going to race them? there are very few circuits designed for anything bigger than 1/10 cars thats why racing a 1/5 scale car is rare especially in the uk.

also you should look carefully into the insurance requirements of what you are proposing, I highly doubt you being granted insurance for something of a similar size and weight to a go kart that has no driver.

I dont know if you've ever looked at 1/5 scale cars you should do a proof of concept with something like this before getting too involved.
https://www.fg-onlineshop.de/idoc/image ... 123949.jpg
https://www.fg-onlineshop.de/idoc/image ... 123949.jpg
Damn that is just awesome looking. I want one.
Please don't confuse this post with support for the thread originators idea, because I dont think its worth the money it would cost, but that car at 1/5th scale is just sweet.

arrowscsrs
arrowscsrs
-1
Joined: 14 Mar 2013, 20:32

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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autogyro wrote:We developed a very similar system for a radio controlled aurogyro in 1970.
It was based on a fully proven light autogyro with a 32 foot rotor.

The point I am making is that there is nothing new in this idea.


Tks

I am not aware of your project so I cannot comment on it, but I bet that back at these days, you were introducing the world to something unimaginably pioneering.
There were no home computers let alone simulators, so if you was looking for the experience, you had to actually fly up there. You offered them an experience while on the land.

Nowadays ARROWS potential users will not go for any invention, they will go for the best result.
And today we are competing the virtual reality.

How did the project go back then?
How was it perceived by the people?
What problems did you face at the time?
Would you say 2013 technology would make its revival meaningful?

Now we definitely do not claim having invented anything new. In fact we do mention that ARROWS is in fact a hi-tech FPV system.

The thing is that unless you are dedicated RC racer or PC gamer spending several thousands of your money , you will just have to compromise.
So the idea is to make the hi-tech FPV feeling available to all, without having to invest anything in equipment.
It will be better than any RC model existing in the market and it will be driven from inside a top cockpit simulator.
So you can hire top quality at an affordable fee.
That is what it is. Quality available to all without requiring ownership.

I do not know if you had the opportunity to visit the http://www.i-way.fr site.
These guys are doing the exact same thing but employing virtual reality.
They offer anyone with driving competence, the opportunity to feel something very close to the real.

arrowscsrs
arrowscsrs
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Joined: 14 Mar 2013, 20:32

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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theblackangus wrote:
A13EX_f wrote:clearly you are going to go ahead with something even though everyone is telling you not to bother.

one new problem i've spotted is that you are planning on making 1/3 scale cars, once you've made these where are you going to race them? there are very few circuits designed for anything bigger than 1/10 cars thats why racing a 1/5 scale car is rare especially in the uk.

also you should look carefully into the insurance requirements of what you are proposing, I highly doubt you being granted insurance for something of a similar size and weight to a go kart that has no driver.

I dont know if you've ever looked at 1/5 scale cars you should do a proof of concept with something like this before getting too involved.
https://www.fg-onlineshop.de/idoc/image ... 123949.jpg
https://www.fg-onlineshop.de/idoc/image ... 123949.jpg
Damn that is just awesome looking. I want one.
Please don't confuse this post with support for the thread originators idea, because I dont think its worth the money it would cost, but that car at 1/5th scale is just sweet.

I fully disagree with you.
Not because you do not support the concept, but because you are comparing the idea to the cost?
What cost has to do with it?
You judge an idea for what it is, for what it offers you, not for what it costs.
We like the idea of flying to the earths stratosphere with Richard's spacecraft although we cannot afford it.

arrowscsrs
arrowscsrs
-1
Joined: 14 Mar 2013, 20:32

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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autogyro wrote:IMO current F1 simms do not simulate the real car in a number of areas.
On another thread we are already talking about one area,the power steering on at least two teams simms, which I do not think come close, it is also impossible to reproduce the g forces.
However, simms are useful to the teams and their drivers in lots of other ways.

F1 computer games do not come even close to reality, no matter what the armchair geeks think.

You are adding to this a scale car which reacts totaly differently to a full size F1 car.
You are also expecting to use tv technology at near ground level where lense angles, depth of field, focus and frame latency all have to be exactly correct. If not the sim driver will not see a proper view.

From this I conclude that at present there is no way that you can accurately simulate the F1 driving experience.


Hi again,

I read this myself as well, that the g forces cannot be reproduced and that is why they are presently considering a helmet device to tackle it.
Thereafter I cannot judge for myself on how the pro F1 drivers conceive the teams' sims, only that - according to their saying - the drivers get the same upper body workout they would get should they were racing in the real car and they do get to practice in them (probably for car performance reasons only) but the driver will still need to get a similar feeling so as to react the same.

A fellow blogger Andy, some posts above, claimed that driving a F1 is relatively easy. I do not know if he also meant racing it, but he went further claiming that sims replicate the actual car really well. I am sure he did not mean the g forces, but surely he was referring to the overall feeling.
You claim the exact / extreme opposite.
Me, I do not know, never had the experience, so I will be ecstatic to whatever I am given to try.

What I am saying is that different people perceive similar experiences differently, mostly because of their previous experiences.
So thinking loud here, it seems to me that at the end of the day we should not even bother on how similar to the F1 car the driving experience what we offer gets.
All we need is just to offer people a better feeling than what they have already experienced, or they can get to experience, save from driving the real thing.

To recapitulate:
1. Although as a full size race car reacts differently than another full size race car, I cannot prove that a scaled race car reacts similarly to its full size prototype. We have too many parameters that are out of scale that even if we replicate the body work and the entire parts' and car's geometry, we will still be left with a different car.
2. The onboard system needs to be perfect.

So considering what you claim is right, I have to agree with you that we cannot get any system replicate accurately the F1 driving experience. But how close do we get to it?
Or comparing it to the rivals, how close or how far better ARROWS get to the sims experience ?

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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#-o

Can we stop this? You asked for criticism, and it's been given in droves. It's a dead idea, and the only reason it's still wandering around is because you keep propping up its zombie corpse with repetitive long-winded posts that either say, "No, you don't understand...", or "This game isn't intended for you...". And of course the ever present "Just what is reality anyway, man."

I checked how many people have voted to support your idea, and it looks like your game is intended for a grand total of four people. Since that's the extent of your audience, might I suggest that this discussion would best be continued among those four by private message? This thread began as spam and has yet to evolve into anything but.
Last edited by Pup on 02 Apr 2013, 14:31, edited 1 time in total.

Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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arrowscsrs wrote:I have to agree with you that we cannot get any system replicate accurately the F1 driving experience. But how close do we get to it? Or comparing it to the rivals, how close or how far better ARROWS get to the sims experience ?
Worse. An F1 game is designed to replicate the vehicle dynamics of an F1 car. Yours is replicating the dynamics of a scale RC car with the complication/comprise that your vehicle dynamics are limited to a physical model - digital models have no such limitation.

Also, the virtual driver environment means that you also lose the advantage of RC racing. The driver wouldn't smell the fumes or be shoulder to shoulder with their competitors.

So in a nutshell you lose the advantages of the virtual world because you're tied into a physical model, and you lose the advantages of the real world racing because its a virtual driver environment.

arrowscsrs
arrowscsrs
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Joined: 14 Mar 2013, 20:32

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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Pup wrote:#-o

Can we stop this? You asked for criticism, and it's been given in droves. It's a dead idea, and the only reason it's still wandering around is because you keep propping up its zombie corpse with repetitive long-winded posts that either say, "No, you don't understand...", or "This game isn't intended for you...". And of course the ever present "Just what is reality anyway, man."

I checked how many people have voted to support your idea, and it looks like your game is intended for a grand total of four people. Since that's the extent of your audience, might I suggest that this discussion would best be continued among those four by private message? This thread began as spam and has yet to evolve into anything but.



Not being able to grasp the idea or not liking the idea it does not bother me.
Not letting me talk about the idea just because you do not like relates to fascism.

So let us worry about how much support we get.
From your side if you do not like the discussion, why don't you just stop following and posting in the thread.

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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arrowscsrs wrote:
Not letting me talk about the idea just because you do not like relates to fascism.
You have made 32 posts in this topic, and neither of them added something to the basic idea. So yeah, you had enough time to talk.
So let us worry about how much support we get.
You arent going to get any support with an idea so badly executed that you, as yourself, dont even know what the hell you are talking about, and that is about your own subject.
From your side if you do not like the discussion, why don't you just stop following and posting in the thread.
I dont think anyone likes your idea and I think this topic should be closed.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

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arrowscsrs wrote: I fully disagree with you.
Not because you do not support the concept, but because you are comparing the idea to the cost?
What cost has to do with it?
You judge an idea for what it is, for what it offers you, not for what it costs.
We like the idea of flying to the earths stratosphere with Richard's spacecraft although we cannot afford it.
What cost has to do with it? I think everything.

You have given no information on it at all, not even estimates of what such a setup costs. I dont even see how you can expect people to fall for such an idea, that apart from it's execution is a bad idea in the first place.

If I make a guess on the costs;

A computer setup, at least 3 screens;
€400,- for the screens
€1000,- for the computer itself
€1000,- for the setup(chair etc.)

So we are talking 2400,- for the setup alone

Because we are talking complete new scale RC cars;
€2000,- for the RC car

so that is a total of €4400,-

Then we need some advanced, expensive network routers and wifi adapters in the cars
€1500,- for the routers

€5900,- is the total, I am missing still a lot here, what do you think of the costs of setting this crap up, the tracks, the costs of moving this crap etc. etc.

I think that with €10000,- you are quite there of the total setup. I think that with these costs I either invest in a gaming rig for simracing(iRacing has enough online championships, that are also online broadcasted) or take my chances karting.

Also, do you have any, any idea at all about how it would work? Because what I have read you havent thought about it for a single bit, nor do you have the skills to do so. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are just try to rip people off their money.

If I had the choice to donate you €5,- or just throw it out on the street I would choose the latter because then I know it would go to good use.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
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Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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My understanding of these venture capital sites is that the cash is only taken when the project hits its target. So given the outlandish target that’s never going to happen, no cash is going to change hands.

I agree the concept as currently presented is not likely to take off.

However lets suspend disbelief and assume there is a realistic solution. Angel investors refer to this as a pivot points. Basically you come up with a crackpot idea, you test it in the market, the market reaction of "that's rubbish you should look at xyz instead" sets you off in another direction. You ping around like Brownian motion until you hit on a concept that works. So while people on here approach this as engineers (is it a realistic solution to a real problem), the start up entrepreneur is approaching it as "I have load of energy and motivation, I go the extra mile, I give 110%, just give me anything so I can apply my limitless energy and redefine paradigms "

Obviously that sort of talk is utter nonsense for an engineer (how can you give 110%, do you grow an extra arm?). It sounds like random fumbling in the dark. Anyway, there are a breed of entrepreneurial wonks who live and breathe this stuff, some of them make money, many of them end up flat on their face.

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/pr ... -find.html

Listen to this if you are in the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01ppn8x or scroll down to "Starting Young" on this link, I think it allows non-UK access http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/worldbiz/all

I was shouting at the radio when I heard that due to some of the arrogant numpties playing at being the next Branson, they need a cold dose of reality. Although the bike light lady seemed very level headed and worth investing in. So maybe it's worth humouring 9 numpties in order to uncover someone with potential.

I think that’s what the OP was getting it. Unfortunately the OP's sketched solution by way of illustration is a red rag to a bull in a forum focussed on engineering. The conversation would be better framed as trying to identify a demand and ignore the problematic matter of the solution.

So suspending my disbelief for a moment...

..

.


I suppose one way the idea might work is if it is positioned as cheaper than a track day but more fun than an arcade game.

Cheaper than a track day” should be easy to establish as long as the scale allowed use of suitable venues – eg car parks at a venue for some corporate bash. Mind you, the venue car park is going to be full of the customer’s proper cars so develop an RC car that can run on the grass/gravel area that most venues have for marquees and other outdoor activities.

Better that an arcade game” is tricky. We’ve outlined why the experience will be worse than an arcade game due to the analogue input from a scale model. However there might possibly be an opportunity in the novelty factor. You can imagine this at some corporate event “race real cars” and “watch your colleagues crash real cars”. I can imagine that exploiting team rivalry, especially if they’ve had a drink or two. It’d be more accessible than karting because it is held at the company’s venue.

So go for corporate entertainment and scale it for a hotel car park or field. Keep it low tech to keep the cost down, after all this market isn’t interested in realism, just the entertainment of things crashing.

Your competitors are paint balling, human table football, and the myriad of “team building” excuses for a corporate piss up.

Give me some shares for this idea.

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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:roll:

CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
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Joined: 25 Sep 2007, 10:51
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Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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got to throw my tuppence at it (sorry Pup)


When these cars are crashed in the race - how do you neutralise the race? You need human marshalls. They cost.

The concept is flawed IMO - I'd rather race RC or karts and cannot fathom why I would want to use a simulator cockpit to race something I am actually close enough to see?

The viewing would be poor. The wild variation in ability would make the races like a dodgems event.

I race sims - GPL is so hard for a beginner - I'll bet 90% of people who try it and try to go fast cannot make a lap without crashing. I suspect this concept would involve a whole lot of first corner, first lap crashes and the repair bills and disruption to the event (to the other drivers) would not allow you to get some decent seat time.
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

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Hey guys.

I have got a funding start up idea.

A racing experience using kart type vehicles.
But with no fuel, no batteries and only tyre noise.

Interested?

Oh yes and for credibility, my associate Wing Commander Ken Wallis designed and built the first slot car racing set up.
Using a window black out board in his spare time during the battle of Britain 1940 while waiting to fly bomber opps over Europe in his Wellington bomber.
He did this years before scalextric but couldnt patent the idea because he was working for the government.
The track and cars are available for inspection, including the tiny hand made electric motors.
One ERA one Merc both with steering from the slot.
Just like the jet engine sgd leader Whittle designed and we gave away.
Now we spend almost all our countries money on yank JSF jets that are already 15 years obsolete.
Silly country we live in isnt it.

By the way the start up is serious and is not a simulation, you still drive the karts for real.