2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:18 pm

Red Bull's fuel partner ExxonMobil has introduced chemicals it has not used before in Formula 1 for a new, more powerful fuel it will debut at the Japanese Grand Prix.

As part of an effort for Red Bull engine supplier Honda's home race at Suzuka, ExxonMobil has made use of cutting-edge molecular science to perfect a blend of fuel that has been specifically designed for the manufacturer's Spec 4 engine.

While Tsurusaki did not detail what power gains the new fuel is expected to offer, he said it was "one of the biggest steps" ExxonMobil has made since it starting working with Red Bull in 2017.

"[But] I cannot comment on the performance gain. I know what it is, otherwise we wouldn't be introducing it, but it definitely is an improvement and wouldn't be introduced if it wasn't."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14650 ... hasnt-used

Bill
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:25 pm

If this Exxon biggest upgrade since 2017 then 15 hp gains reported by Amus is Bs they just pulled random numbers out of their behind and report it as news

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:23 pm

Don't focus on the number. 15hp may not seem like much, unless you consider where those 15hp are in regards to the power curve. If it's 15hp on average across the board it makes a bigger difference than 15hp more mid range, or top end. 1.5% improvement of the entire power band is a big deal.
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maguetox
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by maguetox » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:33 pm

Bill wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:25 pm
If this Exxon biggest upgrade since 2017 then 15 hp gains reported by Amus is Bs they just pulled random numbers out of their behind and report it as news
Is not the biggest, is one of the biggest of Exxon Mobile. As in typical Honda fashion and the weather conditions for Susuza this weekend, I think it will be very difficult to see the true potential of the new fuel this weekend, so don´t expect to much, I will wait until Mexico ( and for some the speed trap at the end of the main stright) to understand the changes that this new fuel bring to Honda PU.

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:37 pm

maguetox wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:33 pm
Bill wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:25 pm
If this Exxon biggest upgrade since 2017 then 15 hp gains reported by Amus is Bs they just pulled random numbers out of their behind and report it as news
Is not the biggest, is one of the biggest of Exxon Mobile. As in typical Honda fashion and the weather conditions for Susuza this weekend, I think it will be very difficult to see the true potential of the new fuel this weekend, so don´t expect to much, I will wait until Mexico ( and for some the speed trap at the end of the main stright) to understand the changes that this new fuel bring to Honda PU.
Mexico is High altitude, might be hard to see there too. Generally it's hard to see the power differences.

If we take Perez as an example, his top speed in quali @ Monza (at a low DF track) was S. PEREZ 349.7 KPH. The same PU (more or less) had a top speed in Quali @ Socchi of S. PEREZ 326.8 KPH. So with no change to the PU and a big change in aero config caused a 23KPH change in top speed. How do you illimentate those types of changes from you theorizing ?

Your best Comparison for Max would be would be last year at the same track but the regs have changed enough to make that impossible.

Keep in mind it takes 25HP to accelerate a regular shaped vehical that weights 800KGs from 300 KPH to 301 KPH in 1 second. I can only imagin how much more power it takes to do the same with a F1 car and all the DF and therefore drag it carries.

My point is that if you're planning to use top speed as the "test" of effectiveness of the PU fuel upgrade, you're lieing to yourself.

loner
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by loner » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:24 pm

the greater important of the new fuel is to prevent the knock allowing the higher modes to run safely during the race.
it should lead to unleash more ponies and stronger show...
para bellum.

hasika
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by hasika » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:37 pm

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/pc/free/inde ... 4661&tt=-1
The data in the wind tunnel test is not good,so there will not introduce the new FW.They had areo efficiency problem with the new design.
But they still bring some update to Suzuka,new RW,Diffuser,and modified FW.

maguetox
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by maguetox » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:06 pm

diffuser wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:37 pm
maguetox wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:33 pm
Bill wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:25 pm
If this Exxon biggest upgrade since 2017 then 15 hp gains reported by Amus is Bs they just pulled random numbers out of their behind and report it as news
Is not the biggest, is one of the biggest of Exxon Mobile. As in typical Honda fashion and the weather conditions for Susuza this weekend, I think it will be very difficult to see the true potential of the new fuel this weekend, so don´t expect to much, I will wait until Mexico ( and for some the speed trap at the end of the main stright) to understand the changes that this new fuel bring to Honda PU.
Mexico is High altitude, might be hard to see there too. Generally it's hard to see the power differences.


My point is that if you're planning to use top speed as the "test" of effectiveness of the PU fuel upgrade, you're lieing to yourself.
That´s why I quote "for some", because much discussion in several chats about the how powerful one PU is, are based on the top speed of the car, what is completely wrong due to all the additional variables that involve that specific measurement.
Even if I agree that Mexico could not be a good parameter to understand the improvements but will give us a better picture of the improvement than in Susuka.

Marti_EF3
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:49 pm

Quoted by Spanish media MARCA from La Gazzetta dello Sport
Honda: 140 million to win the Formula 1 World Championship in 2020

The team really needs to change things and make it work or next year will also be lost. Right now it does not seem that we will be able to compete for the World Cup next year, " said Jos Verstappen , Max's father, after the Grand Prix of Russia. And it is that Sochi had been a new demonstration that Red Bull is still rebuilding Mercedes and Ferrari.

Penalties on the Russian track had influenced, yes, but since Ferrari implemented aerodynamic improvements in the SF90, the Scuderia's red cars compete in another galaxy. And Red Bull has not yet reached her. Verstappen's two victories in Austria and the Netherlands are already counted as distant, and now Hamilton's great rival for the future seems to be Charles Leclerc . Hence the complaints of Jos.


Complaints that have had an effect. 'La Gazzetta dello Sport' advances to full page in its edition today that the Japanese biker has invested 140 million euros in the development of the power unit by 2020. The objective? Narrow the gap with Mercedes and Ferrari. Win the title



According to the aforementioned media, of the 250 employees who worked in the Formula 1 program in 2017, it has gone to 450 in just two years , a clear example of Honda's ambition, which competes this weekend in Suzuka before his public with the fifth specification of its engine in the Red Bull and Toro Rosso. A Grand Prix that has not won since 1991 in Gerhard Berger with the McLaren.

Yesterday, Masashi Yamamoto , Honda's director of operations, revealed to 'Race Fans' that "Max met with Helmut Marko, Christian Horner and Toyoharu Tanabe to learn about Honda's future plans."


"He wanted us to explain the plan we had for the future. We did it for Max, and his response was that Honda has fulfilled, so far, what he promised. He maintains his confidence, " he adds.

"Max wants to win the 21 races," says Yamamoto. Honda, at least, will invest a stratospheric amount (of the highest on the grid) to allow Verstappen to fight from you to you with the giants of the Grand Circus.
https://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/gp ... b45df.html

Bill
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:52 pm

I don't understand why some people are dissatisfied with Redbull Honda effort they objective of these season was a transition year according to Horner basically to learn about chassis pu integration and close the power gap to Mercedes. All these goals have been achieved, we can assume that all efforts have gone into 2020 challenger since big upgrade in Austria so next year should be interesting Redbull always do well in second year after regulation changes the only question mark is Ferrari and there curious pu.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Manoah2u » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:31 pm

Bill wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:52 pm
I don't understand why some people are dissatisfied with Redbull Honda effort they objective of these season was a transition year according to Horner basically to learn about chassis pu integration and close the power gap to Mercedes. All these goals have been achieved, we can assume that all efforts have gone into 2020 challenger since big upgrade in Austria so next year should be interesting Redbull always do well in second year after regulation changes the only question mark is Ferrari and there curious pu.
exactly. Not just that but they've been winning GP's aswell.
Look at the DNF's last year and this year due to powerplant issues.
It's an absolute success.

That said, there is the thing which was recently mentioned that more or less before the summer break,
RBR was in a competitive mode compared to Mercedes and Ferrari. Since the summer break, Ferrari has made an incredible jump forward and Mercedes a tiny bit as to where it more or less looks like RBR have been standing still.

I think we've expected differently after the summer break, especially regarding Singapore.
Still got some races, Japan and Mexico should be interesting, but i think the point people are making are not that they haven't been doing a great job anyway, but that compared to before the summer break, things have been less impressive.

With the end result being simple; early half of 2019, RBR seemed on the right track to - by the end of the year - be on par with Merc and Ferrari with the hopes to be competitive for the 2020 WDC and WCC. Instead, they have been left out in the dry again, and we haven't seen too much to hope for any better relatively soon.

But, then again, Ferrari's sudden leap might actually stain that picture. After all, it's been theorized Ferrari might be doing something more or less 'illegal'. If they've found a trick, and it is legal, then it's a matter of time before Merc and Honda (and Renault) will find that trick and implement it too. If it's illegal, then thats a thing. It would mean Ferrari isn't really where it is so to speak. After all, if Merc and RBR would 'cheat' similarly, the pecking order would probably like it was before the summer break. Funny enough, more or less the same anyway. I'd rather like to belive and hope that Ferrari simply did an outstanding job. And i do hope Honda will take notes and also find more for 2020.
And so would the aero for the RB16.

The news that the new FW is a letdown isn't too good. Its not bad news, but it would be good news if it's actually implemented and there to give them another improvement forward. But hey, we will see what happens this weekend.
Something tells me it's gonna be a LeClerc win with Hamilton 2nd, Bottas 3rd and Vettel 4th meaning Verstappen will be 5th and Albon hopefully 6th.

What i would have much rather like to see is a shot for P1 for Max. But quite frakly, since the summer break, i'm doubtfull about that happening this year.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 pm

I beleive the lack of patience with RBR/Honda stems from a misconception that RBR racing was only missing a good relieable PU to push them over the top. This year, not unlike McLaren's 1st year with Renault, they've learned that they're lacking in other places as well.


Also, IMHO, some of the people in this forum are overly optimistic. Take that with a grain of salt, I've been accused by my wife of being overly pessimistic.

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:35 am

How much can the shift in performance be in regards to out of sync upgrades? It's obvious that Honda introduced it's final spec quite a few race after Mercedes and Ferrari. They also had time to validate all of the reliability with various teams before the main teams used them in anger. They did this without a grid penalty, now Honda will take their step forward and be in sync with the others in terms of upgrades.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:28 am

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:35 am
How much can the shift in performance be in regards to out of sync upgrades? It's obvious that Honda introduced it's final spec quite a few race after Mercedes and Ferrari. They also had time to validate all of the reliability with various teams before the main teams used them in anger. They did this without a grid penalty, now Honda will take their step forward and be in sync with the others in terms of upgrades.
Yeah and Merc has a major aero upgrade.

langedweil
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by langedweil » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:33 am

Hmm, so far it doesn't look extra-special with just P5/P6. Mercs had a faster lap on the Mediums (compared to RB ln Soft), Long runs significantly slower.
So far no fairytale sparks ...