2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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ScottB
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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It's only sensible to replace Bottas if you're able to source a future team leader type for me.

Lewis is past 30 now, and has another year left. Will he stay past then? I'm not sure I'd bet on that. So with one eye on the future, because as good a job as Bottas is doing, he isn't the future Merc number one, if they were able to lure Max or Ricciardo, that would be worth doing. A year alongside Lewis then they step up would work well.

I think the only other possibility is that Ocon continues to impress and he gets promoted in place of Valteri.

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Phil
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Long term, I think yes [re: Vettel staying at Ferrari].

Vettel IMO is enjoying something at the moment that is hard to come by: Team-leadership. I'm not sure he truly had that at RedBull or that RedBull is the team that allows that kind of dynamics. He went to Ferrari and this move has allowed him to "grow" into a driver that is not unlike Michael Schumacher: The focused, hard-working and consistent performer who is also in the lime light. I think Hamilton is in a very similar situation now at Mercedes than if he had stayed at McLaren. He has unfolded and become a personality, his own brand, something that would never have happened to this level if he had stayed McLaren.

Ferrari are very happy with Vettel. He is more often than not showing performances where one could think is driving beyond what the car is or should be capable of. Maybe this is a bit the result of Kimi underperforming, but I think Ferrari will try hard not to lose Vettel.

The other factor is that the performance gap between Mercedes and the other teams is shrinking. Engine wise, there's nigh on nothing in it. Then there is also the long term commitment of Mercedes. Lets assume Mercedes may stay only till end of 2020 (http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... eyond-2020). What's after that? So Vettel comes to Mercedes for a 3 year deal (18/19/20). And then what? Go back to Ferrari? I don't think that will happen.

I think Vettel is in it at Ferrari for the long run, may even end his career there and with a WDC winning Ferrari, may even create his own Michael Schumacher-esque legacy along the way. I do think Mercedes is the stronger team (as a whole, considering all the resources they are willing to spend and their recent level of success), but going there will put him against Hamilton and he will be giving up his "leadership" position IMO (even if he ends up beating Lewis).

If Vettel wins the title this year, it will be his greatest achievement and a dream come true - a dream that has eluded Alonso over the entirety of his career at Ferrari. I very much doubt he'll leave, not in the position he is in right now.

And Bottas, who is doing a very formidable job so far, I think maybe one of the reasons Mercedes might just prefer to stick with what works rather than risk a highly competitive environment to the level they had with Hamilton and Rosberg.

All just IMO of course.

@ScottB: Regarding Lewis committing beyond his contract at Mercedes: Why not? The team dynamics have changed to the positive and I think this year, he is having one of the best seasons yet (by battling another team with the team fully united behind him). He is also racking up records and creating a legacy for himself. All his life, he has been competitive and I honestly wouldn't know where he'd go if he were to leave F1. He's marketing gold, but only if he continues to be that sportsperson. Same applies to Federer and all the other big sports personalities. Once they end their careers and retire, how attractive will they remain to their sponsors? Don't hear much about Agassi, Sampras or others anymore.

Having said that, I can see him staying for at least another 3 year extension which will bring him to the end of Mercedes commitment. He's not like i.e. Rosberg who has a family now and is thinking about risk vs family.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Santozini
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I wanted to hear your thoughts on Lewis' comments on the radio later in the race. He asked the team to ask Bottas to hold Vettel up, so that Lewis could pass him. I was astonished at that comment (and the lack of response on this forum) - I think this begs the question about whether Bottas is officially the #2, out there to assist Hamilton. While the team (correctly) denied the request, it seems like Lewis thinks Bottas is there for not much more than supporting Lewis' own title challenge.

It also paints Lewis in a very unflattering light (given how he likes to project himself as a "true racer" or whatever at every given opportunity) - this race wasn't good for the public perception of any of the title contenders.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Geesh, what an overreaction.

It is not more than logical for Lewis to ask such a thing. It would have been in the benefit of the team, too - remember, they're chasing the WCC whilst the drivers go for the WDC.
lewis in front of Vettel equals more points. Instead, chances of Bottas reaching P2 over Hamilton passing Vettel was the better effort to pursue, so they chose that path, hence why 'denying' lewis that.

Bottas might still have ended up in front of Lewis, but never in P2.

don't make such a fuzz over such an absolute normal thing to do.
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WaikeCU
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:34 am
Geesh, what an overreaction.

It is not more than logical for Lewis to ask such a thing. It would have been in the benefit of the team, too - remember, they're chasing the WCC whilst the drivers go for the WDC.
lewis in front of Vettel equals more points. Instead, chances of Bottas reaching P2 over Hamilton passing Vettel was the better effort to pursue, so they chose that path, hence why 'denying' lewis that.

Bottas might still have ended up in front of Lewis, but never in P2.

don't make such a fuzz over such an absolute normal thing to do.
It's kind of similar to Mclaren 1998 at Melbourne, when Hakkinen pitted for no reason whatsoever. I know this is more of a car issue, but kind of due to a human error during the red flag, that shouldn't have been if the controversy didn't happen.

Shakeman
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Santozini wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:21 am
I wanted to hear your thoughts on Lewis' comments on the radio later in the race. He asked the team to ask Bottas to hold Vettel up, so that Lewis could pass him. I was astonished at that comment (and the lack of response on this forum) - I think this begs the question about whether Bottas is officially the #2, out there to assist Hamilton. While the team (correctly) denied the request, it seems like Lewis thinks Bottas is there for not much more than supporting Lewis' own title challenge.

It also paints Lewis in a very unflattering light (given how he likes to project himself as a "true racer" or whatever at every given opportunity) - this race wasn't good for the public perception of any of the title contenders.
You are trying your best to paint HAM in an unflattering light. Lewis asked his team if Bottas could drop back so that his wake would reduce Vettel's aero advantage if Bottas wasn't involved in his own race ahead. The team quickly replied and said no can do because Bottas was in a rac for more positions. Case was closed.

If this was Schumacher at his pomp it would've been lauded as a great example of a thinking driver with mental capacity to think about what's going on in the race around him while engaged in close racing.

Lewis can't seem to get the same credit.

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SR71
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Shakeman wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:54 pm
Santozini wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:21 am
I wanted to hear your thoughts on Lewis' comments on the radio later in the race. He asked the team to ask Bottas to hold Vettel up, so that Lewis could pass him. I was astonished at that comment (and the lack of response on this forum) - I think this begs the question about whether Bottas is officially the #2, out there to assist Hamilton. While the team (correctly) denied the request, it seems like Lewis thinks Bottas is there for not much more than supporting Lewis' own title challenge.

It also paints Lewis in a very unflattering light (given how he likes to project himself as a "true racer" or whatever at every given opportunity) - this race wasn't good for the public perception of any of the title contenders.
You are trying your best to paint HAM in an unflattering light. Lewis asked his team if Bottas could drop back so that his wake would reduce Vettel's aero advantage if Bottas wasn't involved in his own race ahead. The team quickly replied and said no can do because Bottas was in a rac for more positions. Case was closed.

If this was Schumacher at his pomp it would've been lauded as a great example of a thinking driver with mental capacity to think about what's going on in the race around him while engaged in close racing.

Lewis can't seem to get the same credit.
I disagree. Lewis gets full credit for asking to use any resource available.

Michael would be "lauded" as you state because everyone knew Rubens was there for 1 purpose. The difference we have is Mercedes is still playing the 2 roosters card with Bottas.

Lewis though has verified what many have suspected for a while now, Bottas is Rubens 2.0.

So full credit to the transparency displayed in that radio message and I applaud the FIA for broadcasting it.

I'm curious how Bottas reacted to hearing that later in the day. Probably a cold Finnish chuckle.

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Juzh
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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SR71 wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:27 pm
So full credit to the transparency displayed in that radio message and I applaud the FIA for broadcasting it.
FIA does not broadcast radio messages.

Peter1919
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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SR71 wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:27 pm
Lewis though has verified what many have suspected for a while now, Bottas is Rubens 2.0.
Rubbish, if Bottas was Rubens 2.0 then Merc would have actually ordered him to slow down to help Lewis out instead they gave the idea short shrift and allowed Bottas to race his race and get 2nd place.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Santozini wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:21 am
I wanted to hear your thoughts on Lewis' comments on the radio later in the race. He asked the team to ask Bottas to hold Vettel up, so that Lewis could pass him. I was astonished at that comment (and the lack of response on this forum) - I think this begs the question about whether Bottas is officially the #2, out there to assist Hamilton. While the team (correctly) denied the request, it seems like Lewis thinks Bottas is there for not much more than supporting Lewis' own title challenge.

It also paints Lewis in a very unflattering light (given how he likes to project himself as a "true racer" or whatever at every given opportunity) - this race wasn't good for the public perception of any of the title contenders.
Hmm.. Remember that Lewis politely asked, before any request, if Bottaa was in a battle of his own and if he is not, if he could drop back and block vettel (I suppose in the twisty parts of the track).
It was a smart plan. Whether they could pull it off or not is arguable.
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marvin78
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Smart yes. But in the context that Hamilton always says: "I don't want teamorder. I want to win like an man", and similar BS, it has his taste, whether HAM fans like it or not. That does not mean, that it was not partly smart, even if that could have meant, that even Bottas could have been batteld by Vettel becaus Ferrari seems to have the better car in dirty air.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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marvin78 wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:25 am
Smart yes. But in the context that Hamilton always says: "I don't want teamorder. I want to win like an man", and similar BS, it has his taste, whether HAM fans like it or not. That does not mean, that it was not partly smart, even if that could have meant, that even Bottas could have been batteld by Vettel becaus Ferrari seems to have the better car in dirty air.
If there is one driver who has proven that he can beat any team mate over a season (quali & race) in a comprehensive manner, head on, it's Hamilton. In ten years that he has been racing and before that in junior categories, he has proved it beyond doubt.

There has never been a time when he influenced an inferior driver choice for his team. He has partnered Alonso, Button and Rosberg, who all enjoyed equal status and has beaten all of them. He did not come to Mercedes asking for No.1 priority and he went on fighting with Rosberg.

Even this year, when Mercedes started on back foot, it's Hamilton who has been the flag bearer and took the fight to Ferrari. Bottas hasn't shone that kind of consistent fight in either quali or races. Now that Mercedes is cruising ahead of Ferrari, we would see the battle probably reducing to just two Mercedes drivers. Needless to say, what would happen.

There is no other driver in the last decade (or may be more) who has had such tough luck through his career where the large part of misfortune befalls on him and not his team mate. Still, he has better track records against those team mates.

Beyond that, all these nit picking that Hamilton haters do, is just to console their own egos that doesn't accept that simple fact. In fact it is funny to see they hang on to these extremely small pieces with so much excitement, in such a large career canvas that has already established him as one of the all time greats.

marvin78
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I do not hate any driver. I do not know them. How could I hate or like them? I find it ridiculous and anoying that someone with an opinion about one matter is always called hater here. Try to read more carefully and take of your fan glasses.

I really don't care about any driver. I take a neutral look on it. That's all. Hamilton is not better or worse in teamorder matters than all top drivers. That's my message.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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marvin78 wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:10 am
I do not hate any driver. I do not know them. How could I hate or like them? I find it ridiculous and anoying that someone with an opinion about one matter is always called hater here. Try to read more carefully and take of your fan glasses.

I really don't care about any driver. I take a neutral look on it. That's all. Hamilton is not better or worse in teamorder matters than all top drivers. That's my message.
It's not bad to be liking or hating a driver or a team, but the manner in which you go about it is what makes you either dignified or lose respect. No one is holy or sacred and everyone can be praised or criticized. The bigger the bucket of achievements become, the more you have to be intelligent in being critical and see if there is an overwhelming evidence to prove your point wrong (contextual or otherwise). It's so easy to criticize and belittle someone like Palmer and the same becomes more or and more difficult when it is Hamilton, Alonso or even Vettel. There is a large body of work that makes a critical point futile, if not done in an intelligent and value based manner.

marvin78
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Yeah. That is what I did. But you did not read it right. I never discredidet Hamiltons F1 achievements. That's the point here. BUT: I really don't think that the bucket of achievement of any F1 driver is bigger than that of my neighbour the mason (who is really good in his job). So I don't really see the point in what you say. Hamilton (and all the others) show(s) that he is a normal person like you and me. That is not really a surprise for me but it seems to be one for his/their fans.