2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:41 pm

M840TR wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:13 pm
"The structure is not allowing certain individuals to be as entrepreneurial as I would like them to be," said Brown.

"I think it has not enabled them to make decisions quickly enough. I think sometimes there is an appropriate time for decision by committee, and then I think there's also times when there should be decisions by individuals.
What kind of system are they running in there? Does everything that go onto the car or happen at the factory has to be approved by a committee of some kind? No wonder Zak says they need to be more "nimble".
That is the view I have had for quite a while. Probably since Ron left.

Don't know if it is no one is confident enough or empowered enough, or just no one wants to get the blame
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

f1universe
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by f1universe » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:24 pm

M840TR wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:13 pm
"The structure is not allowing certain individuals to be as entrepreneurial as I would like them to be," said Brown.

"I think it has not enabled them to make decisions quickly enough. I think sometimes there is an appropriate time for decision by committee, and then I think there's also times when there should be decisions by individuals.
What kind of system are they running in there? Does everything that go onto the car or happen at the factory has to be approved by a committee of some kind? No wonder Zak says they need to be more "nimble".
I thought that was the Honda way, and in general also the way of Japanese companies. They have their excuse now, let's what they deliver next year.

Nonserviam85
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Nonserviam85 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:27 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:41 pm
M840TR wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:13 pm
"The structure is not allowing certain individuals to be as entrepreneurial as I would like them to be," said Brown.

"I think it has not enabled them to make decisions quickly enough. I think sometimes there is an appropriate time for decision by committee, and then I think there's also times when there should be decisions by individuals.
What kind of system are they running in there? Does everything that go onto the car or happen at the factory has to be approved by a committee of some kind? No wonder Zak says they need to be more "nimble".
That is the view I have had for quite a while. Probably since Ron left.

Don't know if it is no one is confident enough or empowered enough, or just no one wants to get the blame
I recommend you all to read Andrian Newey’s book, he explains in detail when this structure was implemented and how he disagreed with it. One of the reasons he left McLaren.

Big Tea
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:38 pm

f1universe wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:24 pm
M840TR wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:13 pm
"The structure is not allowing certain individuals to be as entrepreneurial as I would like them to be," said Brown.

"I think it has not enabled them to make decisions quickly enough. I think sometimes there is an appropriate time for decision by committee, and then I think there's also times when there should be decisions by individuals.
What kind of system are they running in there? Does everything that go onto the car or happen at the factory has to be approved by a committee of some kind? No wonder Zak says they need to be more "nimble".
I thought that was the Honda way, and in general also the way of Japanese companies. They have their excuse now, let's what they deliver next year.
I have worked with (not for I add) several Japanese companies, and there is never any doubt as to who ranks whom.
It is sort of a natural way, but still sharply defined.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

zoroastar
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by zoroastar » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am

im wondering what percentage of their "problems" are from the rule changes that alonso talked about. ie monkey seat/blown rear wing, and how much is other things. if the removal of the monkey seat is indeed their main problem it seems like that could explain low speed traction to a large degree. i would be surprised not to see a renault style exaust setup next year

diffuser
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by diffuser » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:49 am

zoroastar wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am
im wondering what percentage of their "problems" are from the rule changes that alonso talked about. ie monkey seat/blown rear wing, and how much is other things. if the removal of the monkey seat is indeed their main problem it seems like that could explain low speed traction to a large degree. i would be surprised not to see a renault style exaust setup next year
The only thing they tested in that area was the halo. Everything else was in and around the front. Wing, brake ducts, bib, t-tray and mid wing.

makecry
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by makecry » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:06 am

diffuser wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:49 am
zoroastar wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am
im wondering what percentage of their "problems" are from the rule changes that alonso talked about. ie monkey seat/blown rear wing, and how much is other things. if the removal of the monkey seat is indeed their main problem it seems like that could explain low speed traction to a large degree. i would be surprised not to see a renault style exaust setup next year
The only thing they tested in that area was the halo. Everything else was in and around the front. Wing, brake ducts, bib, t-tray and mid wing.
They did do some flow viz test around the floor area of the engine cover just in front of the suspension IIRC.

zoroastar
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by zoroastar » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:38 am

makecry wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:06 am
diffuser wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:49 am
zoroastar wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am
im wondering what percentage of their "problems" are from the rule changes that alonso talked about. ie monkey seat/blown rear wing, and how much is other things. if the removal of the monkey seat is indeed their main problem it seems like that could explain low speed traction to a large degree. i would be surprised not to see a renault style exaust setup next year
The only thing they tested in that area was the halo. Everything else was in and around the front. Wing, brake ducts, bib, t-tray and mid wing.
They did do some flow viz test around the floor area of the engine cover just in front of the suspension IIRC.
could be that they have lost that avenue of developement until next year when they can mount the PU at a different angle like renault so they are finding what they can do elsewhere. im sure there are plenty of other things to work on to be honest.

M840TR
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by M840TR » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:41 am

makecry wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:06 am
diffuser wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:49 am
zoroastar wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am
im wondering what percentage of their "problems" are from the rule changes that alonso talked about. ie monkey seat/blown rear wing, and how much is other things. if the removal of the monkey seat is indeed their main problem it seems like that could explain low speed traction to a large degree. i would be surprised not to see a renault style exaust setup next year
The only thing they tested in that area was the halo. Everything else was in and around the front. Wing, brake ducts, bib, t-tray and mid wing.
They did do some flow viz test around the floor area of the engine cover just in front of the suspension IIRC.
Image
Image

gdogg371
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by gdogg371 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:10 pm

Following up on the Adrian Newey book comment, the matrix management system was brought in by Martin Whitmarsh as far back as 2002-03 roughly on the orders of Ron Dennis. This was done almost entirely to get back at Adrian who had wanted to leave for Jaguar and basically had Ron over a barrel for money. The short term result was a couple of bad cars McLaren produced during that period where a committee containing the likes of Pat Fry, Paddy Lowe and Whitmarsh hanged up on Newey and Peter Prod to force through an alternative design that tanked spectaclularly...when the committee was eventually forced to concede defeat the Newey car made its debut (Spa 2004 I think) and the team went from nowhere to qualifying on pole. And that is the committee structure that survives to this day...

PhillipM
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Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by PhillipM » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:04 pm

makecry wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:06 am
diffuser wrote: The only thing they tested in that area was the halo. Everything else was in and around the front. Wing, brake ducts, bib, t-tray and mid wing.
They did do some flow viz test around the floor area of the engine cover just in front of the suspension IIRC.
They did a lot of it, they've been running flow vis back there for 2 or 3 races. Before they even started running flow vis on the halo or front wing and bargeboards.

M840TR
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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:04 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by M840TR » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:04 pm

gdogg371 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:10 pm
Following up on the Adrian Newey book comment, the matrix management system was brought in by Martin Whitmarsh as far back as 2002-03 roughly on the orders of Ron Dennis. This was done almost entirely to get back at Adrian who had wanted to leave for Jaguar and basically had Ron over a barrel for money. The short term result was a couple of bad cars McLaren produced during that period where a committee containing the likes of Pat Fry, Paddy Lowe and Whitmarsh hanged up on Newey and Peter Prod to force through an alternative design that tanked spectaclularly...when the committee was eventually forced to concede defeat the Newey car made its debut (Spa 2004 I think) and the team went from nowhere to qualifying on pole. And that is the committee structure that survives to this day...
Any source of this info? Was this in the book?

Nonserviam85
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Nonserviam85 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:19 pm

gdogg371 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:10 pm
Following up on the Adrian Newey book comment, the matrix management system was brought in by Martin Whitmarsh as far back as 2002-03 roughly on the orders of Ron Dennis. This was done almost entirely to get back at Adrian who had wanted to leave for Jaguar and basically had Ron over a barrel for money. The short term result was a couple of bad cars McLaren produced during that period where a committee containing the likes of Pat Fry, Paddy Lowe and Whitmarsh hanged up on Newey and Peter Prod to force through an alternative design that tanked spectaclularly...when the committee was eventually forced to concede defeat the Newey car made its debut (Spa 2004 I think) and the team went from nowhere to qualifying on pole. And that is the committee structure that survives to this day...
Pretty much this sums it up...How to build a car, chapters 57,58 (to save you some time)

gdogg371
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by gdogg371 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:36 pm

Yes all book sourced.

diffuser
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by diffuser » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:32 pm

makecry wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:06 am
diffuser wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:49 am
zoroastar wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am
im wondering what percentage of their "problems" are from the rule changes that alonso talked about. ie monkey seat/blown rear wing, and how much is other things. if the removal of the monkey seat is indeed their main problem it seems like that could explain low speed traction to a large degree. i would be surprised not to see a renault style exaust setup next year
The only thing they tested in that area was the halo. Everything else was in and around the front. Wing, brake ducts, bib, t-tray and mid wing.
They did do some flow viz test around the floor area of the engine cover just in front of the suspension IIRC.

Oh? Thanks, I had forgotten about. That being said, I don't remember any rule changes with floor area. They were testing the wing changes in those pictures. I remember they had flowvis on the front wing too.