2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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ispano6
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:01 am

Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:19 pm
True. Was surprised after Quali Max had such strong pace in the race. But if they have to start all GPs behind the Mercedes its gonna be tough. So what about the large Q gap in Melbourne? All 3 Qs they were about 0.6 to 0.8s off p1. Anyone know if they turner party mode on already in Q2 after Gasly scare or only in Q3? Gain from Q1 -> Q2 was 1.2s while Q2 -> Q3 was only 0.3s. Also in the race when Bottas used party mode for fastest lap he was 0.7 faster than Max fastest lap. That's huge.
I wouldn't read too much into it other than Mercedes have a huge gap and everyone already acknowledges it. Every driver has their good and bad tracks, and all we know is that for that small window in Q2 and Q3 when the track started to speed up some people got caught with their pants down and others capitalized.

Next race will see a fuel upgrade for Honda so we should see performance gains without necessarily requiring hardware or spec changes. Optimizing chemistry and mappings race to race may prove crucial, especially for a race with changing conditions.

etusch
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by etusch » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:06 am

ANALYSIS HONDA RED BULL RACING


Red Bull and Honda teaming up was a gamble, a marriage of convenience even - Honda had three years of pain with McLaren, Red Bull had come to the end of their tether with engine partner Renault. But the early signs suggest it could actually turn out to be a match made in heaven.

OK, admittedly they have only spent pre-season and one Grand Prix weekend as a partnership, but already the signs look promising. The eight days of pre-season testing, which have in the past caused so many headaches, went remarkably smoothly. Honda managed 1,768 laps in that period, just 66 shy of Renault, but more than double what they achieved the previous year (822), albeit with two teams.

Honda have opted to stick with the concept they created in 2017 and thus are benefitting from their second successive winter of being able to evolve and enhance that design, rather than having to start from scratch. It meant they were able to bring the specification they wanted to race in the season-opener in Melbourne to the first day of the test, giving them plenty of time to calibrate and prove reliability before Australia.

Aside from a few minor niggles – that didn’t cost them major track time – Honda got through pre-season unscathed. That put them on the front foot in Australia, where they hit the ground running. That whole weekend was a success, too, in terms of reliability. Yes, Pierre Gasly suffered a small loss of power during practice, but that was soon resolved and didn’t cost them any running time.

All four Honda-powered cars made it to the finish in Melbourne. A fine feat for their first race supplying two teams. Reliability, then, looks encouraging. Not so much for Red Bull’s old engine partner, though, who suffered yet another MGU-K failure, this time on Carlos Sainz’s McLaren during the race.

2019 Australian GP
But what about the performance? It’s all well and good having an engine that doesn’t break down, but that’s not so useful if you’re well off the pace. Well, the initial data looks very encouraging for Red Bull-Honda.

Across the speed trap, start/finish line and intermediate one and intermediate two (at set points around the circuit) in Melbourne, Honda had a clean sweep across all four classifications. Admittedly, those figures don’t take into account if the DRS is in use or if they had picked up a tow from another car, but it’s an astonishing achievement nonetheless, given Honda were nowhere near the top of the charts last year.

In qualifying, when engine manufacturers turn their settings up to give the drivers a bit of extra juice, it was a Mercedes power unit that topped the charts at 322.5km/h. However, Honda was just a fraction – 0.6km/h in fact – behind at 321.9km/h. Again, it’s dangerous to make firm conclusions from this kind of data, but it does at least give us a glimpse into the gains Honda have made over the winter.

Their qualifying gains are perhaps their most impressive recent achievement. There were signs last year that they had started to make improvements in this area when Toro Rosso got two cars into Q3 in Japan. Honda chief Toyoharu Tanabe says “from the end of last year, we have slightly more delta compared to the previous years between practice, qualifying and the race”.

2019 Australian GP
While Honda won’t profess to having a party mode, it’s clear they have developed settings in order to give their drivers a bit more oomph over one lap. It was notable that in qualifying in Australia, Verstappen was able to improve by 1.198s from Q1 to Q2. That was a better gain than either Mercedes or Ferrari driver, having done a very strong lap in Q1 that was better than Vettel's.

That was the kind of gain that Verstappen could only have dreamed of last year. Q2 was traditionally the time when the Mercedes and Ferrari power units could stretch their legs and Renault had no response. On the evidence of Australia, that’s no longer the case. Verstappen even managed an improvement of 0.358s in Q3, just short of a tenth less of a gain than pole-sitter Valtteri Bottas.

Verstappen was delighted. He hasn’t been shy about praising Honda, indicating that they have delivered on their promises so far and offering particular praise for the performance side of things. In the race, he said he could “at least have a go” at attacking in the race – something that wasn’t often the case in the previous era. And he demonstrated the overall package’s potential with a pass on Vettel for the final podium place.

2019-01-aus-top-10-race-plot.png
Verstappen’s performance relative to Mercedes and Ferrari in the race was impressive, as the race plot above shows. He was able to run the same pace as Lewis Hamilton (who admittedly had damage) and Vettel, despite both his rivals having pitted for fresh tyres. In the closing stages of the race, only eventual race winner Bottas was quicker than him – and he was able to catch and comfortably run with Hamilton.

Honda’s dyno testing suggested they had made progress over the winter. The mood inside Honda has been getting consistently more positive over the last 18 months – and the recent history has suggested a good correlation from factory to track. Red Bull seem delighted with Honda’s progress, the duo enjoying the sweetest of honeymoon periods. Team boss Christian Horner declared the engine a “thing of beauty”.

Of course, it’s not just Honda that contributed to Verstappen’s podium in Australia. Red Bull brought forward an aerodynamic upgrade package by two races while Verstappen started this year as he ended last year – in staggering form. But Honda will have played a big part in Red Bull securing their best result in Australia – a track which hasn’t traditionally suited them - since Vettel finished third in 2013. Honda, in turn, were also rewarded with their first podium since 2008.

The form even caught Mercedes boss Toto Wolff’s attention. He says Honda have made a “huge step” and marked Red Bull out as a contender for the title. Tanabe has moved to play things down, though. He still believes Honda have plenty of work ahead of them if they are to catch Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of performance. But they are doing everything right so far and Masashi Yamamoto’s move into a newly-created role of F1 Managing Director – from General Manager of Honda’s Motorsport Division – on April 1 to allow him to fully focus on F1 project can only help their bid to close that gap.

It won’t be the work of a moment, but testing and Australia shows they are on the right path. Red Bull will hope Honda can stay on that trajectory and maintain that momentum. If they can, the glory days for both stakeholders may not be that far away

Lawrence Barretto
25 March 2019
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... HLGdT.html

Capharol
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Capharol » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:21 am

I completely agree with the article
Thanks etusch
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
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Godius
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Godius » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:33 am

In the end Sauber and Vasseur are the big losers by ditching their Honda pre-contract. They had the deal with Honda for 2018 (and onwards) and could have developed into a championship contending privateer just like RBR. Nowadays Sauber/Alfa is condemned to being Ferraris midfield b-team.

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by turbof1 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:51 am

Godius wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:33 am
In the end Sauber and Vasseur are the big losers by ditching their Honda pre-contract. They had the deal with Honda for 2018 (and onwards) and could have developed into a championship contending privateer just like RBR. Nowadays Sauber/Alfa is condemned to being Ferraris midfield b-team.
I think that is way too presemptious. Sauber does not have the resources Red Bull has. The deal with Ferrari brought a lot of money, resources and good drivers and engineers. Honda would have brought something of money, but I doubt they would be getting the same amount as Ferrari/Alfa is now putting into it. Also, the Ferrari PU brought them good performance gains.

Red Bull made a very good deal, but just because a deal works for you does not mean it will automatically work for somebody else. Red Bull has a lot of marketing opportunities with Honda because both have been working together in other sports as well, something Sauber does not have.
#AeroFrodo

etusch
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by etusch » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:08 pm

Capharol wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:21 am
I completely agree with the article
Thanks etusch
You're welcome

Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:12 pm

etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:06 am
ANALYSIS HONDA RED BULL RACING

Lawrence Barretto
25 March 2019
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... HLGdT.html
Nice article, thank you Etusch. \:D/

Juzh
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Juzh » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:17 pm

Let's not forget RB ran too little downforce for this track and yet they only matched mercedes in the speed traps. They have some work to do.

McMika98
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by McMika98 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:04 pm

Juzh wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:17 pm
Let's not forget RB ran too little downforce for this track and yet they only matched mercedes in the speed traps. They have some work to do.
Its a matter of perspective. Redbull had more downforce than all except maybe Merc especially on the front wing. Wven Ferrari had less downforce from the front wing. If speed is your measure of performance than TR topped on almost all speed charts and what did they get.

LM10
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by LM10 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:45 pm

Godius wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:33 am
In the end Sauber and Vasseur are the big losers by ditching their Honda pre-contract. They had the deal with Honda for 2018 (and onwards) and could have developed into a championship contending privateer just like RBR. Nowadays Sauber/Alfa is condemned to being Ferraris midfield b-team.
And what is Toro Rosso? They used several engines last season just to help Honda make progress and prepare for the relationship with RBR. Franz Tost even told that they would be ready again to do the same this season, if it helps RBR.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:35 am

Godius wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:33 am
In the end Sauber and Vasseur are the big losers by ditching their Honda pre-contract. They had the deal with Honda for 2018 (and onwards) and could have developed into a championship contending privateer just like RBR. Nowadays Sauber/Alfa is condemned to being Ferraris midfield b-team.
Not really. Sauber doesn’t have the resources to design a whole car from scratch and to integrate the package like Redbull can. They would be like Torro Rosso, maybe worse.

The Ferrari deal took them from last in line, to the same performance level as Haas. Fighting for a 4-5th place in WCC. Not bad for a small team.

Godius
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Godius » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:36 am

turbof1 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:51 am
Godius wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:33 am
In the end Sauber and Vasseur are the big losers by ditching their Honda pre-contract. They had the deal with Honda for 2018 (and onwards) and could have developed into a championship contending privateer just like RBR. Nowadays Sauber/Alfa is condemned to being Ferraris midfield b-team.
I think that is way too presemptious. Sauber does not have the resources Red Bull has. The deal with Ferrari brought a lot of money, resources and good drivers and engineers. Honda would have brought something of money, but I doubt they would be getting the same amount as Ferrari/Alfa is now putting into it. Also, the Ferrari PU brought them good performance gains.

Red Bull made a very good deal, but just because a deal works for you does not mean it will automatically work for somebody else. Red Bull has a lot of marketing opportunities with Honda because both have been working together in other sports as well, something Sauber does not have.
LM10 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:45 pm
Godius wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:33 am
In the end Sauber and Vasseur are the big losers by ditching their Honda pre-contract. They had the deal with Honda for 2018 (and onwards) and could have developed into a championship contending privateer just like RBR. Nowadays Sauber/Alfa is condemned to being Ferraris midfield b-team.
And what is Toro Rosso? They used several engines last season just to help Honda make progress and prepare for the relationship with RBR. Franz Tost even told that they would be ready again to do the same this season, if it helps RBR.
NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:35 am
Godius wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:33 am
In the end Sauber and Vasseur are the big losers by ditching their Honda pre-contract. They had the deal with Honda for 2018 (and onwards) and could have developed into a championship contending privateer just like RBR. Nowadays Sauber/Alfa is condemned to being Ferraris midfield b-team.
Not really. Sauber doesn’t have the resources to design a whole car from scratch and to integrate the package like Redbull can. They would be like Torro Rosso, maybe worse.

The Ferrari deal took them from last in line, to the same performance level as Haas. Fighting for a 4-5th place in WCC. Not bad for a small team.
I disagree, Sauber is incomparable to Toro Rosso. Saubers homebase in Hinwil is quite large and modern, it is self-sufficient when there is sufficient financial backing. Their cars were always innovative in terms of design philosophy, even after the break-up with BMW they still could compete for podium places with the Ferrari engine. Things went wrong for them in the V6-era but that counted for every other team aside from Mercedes.

Toro Rosso is a team with limited resources and limited prospects from te get-go just like Haas and Alfa Romeo, it is not likely that they will ever outgrow the midfield. That surely would not have been the case fo Sauber with Honda backing according to the 2017 pre-contract, effectively becoming a works team and would have attracted more financial backing.

Sauber made a big jump in performance last year already, that shows that their homebase in Hinwil has enormous potential with the right resources.

Singabule
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Singabule » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:04 am

Low drag configuration should benefit RB in many circuits, hence even if they develop high DF packages i believe current one is beneficial to use at Bahrain, RB ring, SPA, Monza, Canada at least. So that is the 5 race that they need to win. Interesting weekend ahead

NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:21 pm

They have been running relative low drag for 2-3 years now, to compensate for an underpowered Renault unit. 2018 every rain race was a dissaster, because a lack of downforce. With a more powerfull engine they need to restore the sweet spot (for efficiënt DF/Drag performance) to 2016-2017 levels.

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Hino » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:35 am

Telemetry comparison between top qualifiers in Australia.

https://unendinginsight.wordpress.com/2 ... -analysis/

Image
Immediately evident is the strong straightline speeds by the Red Bull with it’s new Honda PU, a sign that Honda has made some good progress. However, it’s likely that the Red Bull was running less downforce to help with this straightline speed as it is much slower in the high speed T11-12/T15, and may also explain why Verstappen brakes earlier than Hamilton multiple times. The RPM of the Honda PU is also significantly and quite consistently lower than that of the Mercedes PU so Honda still appears to have a good amount of work to do.

Unlike the Ferrari, and perhaps with less downforce, the Red Bull doesn’t need to brake for T4 and T14, though it is difficult to determine whether this is driver style or car characteristic dependent. Relative to Mercedes the Red Bull remains close in slow corners and perhaps gets closer even near the end of the lap, possibly a sign that it keeps its tyres in good condition throughout the lap.