[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Jaisonas]

Anyone has link to Max's onboard of Q3 Silvestone lap... I'm intrigued to see onboard comparison with Charles just to see what us and Ferrari are up to. I am curious to see where Ferrari made up all that time...

Waiting for Juzh to post his telemetry thing as well

[Pany]

Honda has very good PU. But marcedes now have made an unbelievable big step engine wise. Their PU is superior. Accept it. With the help of superlative Pu mercedes can produce super downforce easily, hence improving curves and saving tires. RB and Ferrari, in order to do the same can not add downforce and consequently have to use extreme aero in order to attack mercedes. Is so easy to understand. The same situation since seven years

[TNTHead]

Hello all,

Can anyone with a bit more technical knowledge explain to me how is RBR under performing at such a massive rate? I have spent three days now reading about their PU from Honda, virtually from every respectable source, and 95% of time, the headlines are along the line of "progress has been made". I also believe that barring the nuclear missile that Brackley put in that Merc PU Honda has made the largest legal gains since mid-2019. I come here, to find more information on the Bull's struggle and i even find posts claiming the Ferrari trickery affected Honda, pretty much labelling the old PU part illegal. I honestly believe Honda has an amazing PU and that their presence in a top 3 teams is a blessing for F1. So, can anyone explain how they managed to go backwards? I mean i think it is the first this actually happened for RBR in a long while.

By RB it is confirmed multiple times that Honda met their target and that their problems are at the chassis side (aero/drag/suspension)

You might get some insights in this summary article, posted in this thread about a week ago:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/51739796

High rake is difficult to get right with the banning of a outwash front wing, ban on blown front axle also doesn't help. Add to that a new front suspension and RB's inability to design a car flaweless without extensive track side running and you get this like they are having for years now: they need 7 to 8 races to dial in their package.

[godzi]

It's funny, I'm surprised how almost nobody talks about albon's disastrous performance.... In Hungary, he's behind max at 70 sec., breaks his car again, twice in Q3 in 4 races, behind gasly in qualifying, for the same price, pierre would have been insulted on 15 pages of the forums! How many joker for albon, the human sponsor of the brand.?

[McMika98]

Just look at the race forums and general chat post if you take enjoyment from posts slating him. Almost every media is on his case and we have finished 3 races and he was close to winning the first race with the circumstances. No one said he is doing a ok job.
But Redbull has been a bigger disaster than Albon, no one in their right mind can think that Max would qualify in P7 in Hungary. He needs to improve but then he needs to given this season to prove himself and a car that is at least much quicker than the midfield.

[GPR-A]

High rake is difficult to get right with the banning of a outwash front wing, ban on blown front axle also doesn't help.

Red Bull adopted the full outwash front wing from RB12 (2016). But their cars always had rake from 2011 onwards (relatively higher). The problems could be beyond what a layman sitting here can understand. They have experienced and talented people working for them and if they are having challenges, it must be more complex than anyone here can imagine.

RB12 outwash front wing


Prior to that, until RB11, they had inwash front wings.


RB10 Rake

[Juzh]

[HPD]

Horner: "We changed our philosophy for the front of the car last winter and that caused some unexpected problems with the rest of the car. With this weekend's new parts we are trying to tackle that step-by-step"

https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/chris ... ne/4847272

[Revs84]

Today there was another article in Motorsport Italy which gives the following figures in terms of peak power during quali:

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... n=widget-1

Mercedes: 1022hp
Honda: 994 (-28)
Renault: 985 (-37)
Ferrari: 980 (-42)

How actual and accurate it is we cannot really tell, but even if it's true, these numbers don't really tell much on their own.

When I was younger I used to follow drag racing quite a bit. Not particularly a fan, but used to enjoy following with my friends. From this type of racing you learn that bhp on it's own is only a small part of the story. The fastest cars were those that were also generating the highest torque, had the least drag and also were able to put power to the ground most efficiently.

And it's no different in F1 - with the added challenge of having to build a car that is able to find the right balance between being slippery enough in straights whilst generating enough downforce to tackle corners efficiently.

At the moment, apart from speculation of what the bhp is, we don't really know much, but we do know a few other things:

- The RB16 is neither particularly good at straights nor brilliant at cornering
- The car is nervous in corners and it's clear it's not behaving as it was meant to.

Now a lot of people will say "they used a shallower wing than the competition. They must surely have done this to make up for having less power."

Well, something that a lot of people seem to believe is that high rake cars are 'less draggy'. It's actually the opposite. Low rake cars are more efficient.

So why do teams like Red Bull go for high rake cars? The fact is that if and when a high rake car works well, it has several advantages that outweigh the additional drag and can result in a formidable all rounder:

- The car can be built lighter, giving the possibility to add ballast freely to optimise handling across different tracks
- It works better in technical tracks due its shorter wheelbase
- Due to the low pressure created from underneath the floor, the car squats at higher speeds

And herein lies the problem. Unless your concept works as it is intended to, everything comes at a penalty. In regards to a high rake car, this will be even more pronounced in cornering and top speed. What this is to say is that no matter what PU you put in that RB16 at the moment, it will be way slower than the W11.

The main change Red Bull did this year was to the nose, and I very much suspect that this has led to problems with the sealing of the underfloor. Which is the hardest thing to get right in high rake cars. It seems to me that environmental factors might be causing the car to not doing this effectively enough, resulting in all the issues that we have been seeing.

So back to where I started from - the PU power. How much of the 1second deficit to Mercedes yesterday during quali was down to the PU? Even without knowing other factors such as torque, drivability and average power delivery during a lap, I can confidently say this; very little. 0.3 to 0.4 at best. And I dare say this will be even less during the race.

As it stands, the biggest headache for Red Bull is their aero. Until that part is sorted out, any arguments that the 'lower' power delivery by the Honda PU is a major factor, currently holds no water.

Oh, and as a bonus, here's an article by Gary Anderson about Red Bull's high rake problems.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/has-red- ... e-designs/

And now - Fingers crossed for the race!

[GhostF1]

How good getting rated negatively for "being a macho Honda man" and getting told "others can "express themselves".

If someone just sits there and claims as fact "the engine is rubbish"... apart from it clearly being nonsense, I feel like that is more hate speech than actually providing facts or discussion on a tech forum.

Thank you for identifying yourselves for ignore list additions.

[Bill]

Gasly already said the Honda give around 1050 hp Merc broke the 1000 barrier a year or two ago

[Karim28]

Nooooooo
What a stupid timing for the last pitstop
What a missfortune
That driver is so lucky.

[Bill]

Blunder they should not have stopped.Max didn't benefit from saving tires

[closed1001]

ahhh so unlucky

[Bill]

The Honda pu is a good race engine the last 5 laps were fan from 3 drivers