[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:54 am
Instead of people who have no idea what the problem is, defending Honda, it would be worth to wait until Honda clarifies their position.

Tell that also to the people who blame Honda, because it would be worth to wait until Honda clarifies their position.

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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In Marco's own words, they want Honda to rush through improvements. Until they have been run long enough, reliability can not be established.
Wait 2 weeks and have 99% , or run it now and have 90
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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Moore77
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:05 am
Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:54 am
Instead of people who have no idea what the problem is, defending Honda, it would be worth to wait until Honda clarifies their position.

Tell that also to the people who blame Honda, because it would be worth to wait until Honda clarifies their position.
You are missing the point. It's OK for people to hold Honda responsible, based on what the team has been saying. They might be completely wrong, but for the time being, they are right.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

Mulman
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I think the onboard conversation from Albon with his race engineer a couple of minutes still in the pit waiting for the restart is interresting. Simon tells Albon multiple times to avoid full throttle on the formation lap in order to keep things cool. Otherwise he could expect significant powerloss at the restart before turn one. I think they know exactly what the problem is. Last week Max just at the restart Max complained immediately about "the engine is hot". It must be cooling related on Honda side or Chassis side. Before (re-)starts engines and systems are warmed up perhaps to hot in combination with the buildup on the formation lap and waiting before the start. Once on speed it's ok, but when to hot it cannot resolve itself easy. Since a couple of weeks the power on restarts from both of them is pretty weak. They seam to lose many places already on the strait.

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:10 am
Wouter wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:05 am
Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:54 am
Instead of people who have no idea what the problem is, defending Honda, it would be worth to wait until Honda clarifies their position.

Tell that also to the people who blame Honda, because it would be worth to wait until Honda clarifies their position.
.
You are missing the point. It's OK for people to hold Honda responsible, based on what the team has been saying. They might be completely wrong, but for the time being, they are right.

Why is it OK for people to hold Honda responsible, based on what the team has been said?

This is all that Honda has said:
Tanabe: "So, although we are happy about Alex’s first podium, it is very disappointing to have had a PU problem with Max, especially as he had looked to have good pace since Friday. We have already started analysing the problem back in the factory and we will now carry out an in-depth analysis to find the root cause, so as to be in good shape for the second half of the season."

I don't read anywhere here that Honda says they are to blame for the outage, do you?

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Moore77
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:32 am
Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:10 am
Wouter wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:05 am



Tell that also to the people who blame Honda, because it would be worth to wait until Honda clarifies their position.
.
You are missing the point. It's OK for people to hold Honda responsible, based on what the team has been saying. They might be completely wrong, but for the time being, they are right.

Why is it OK for people to hold Honda responsible, based on what the team has been said?

This is all that Honda has said:
Tanabe: "So, although we are happy about Alex’s first podium, it is very disappointing to have had a PU problem with Max, especially as he had looked to have good pace since Friday. We have already started analysing the problem back in the factory and we will now carry out an in-depth analysis to find the root cause, so as to be in good shape for the second half of the season."

I don't read anywhere here that Honda says they are to blame for the outage, do you?
https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/09/16 ... ve-engine/
Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko acknowledges his team must do better to help Max Verstappen contend for a Formula 1 championship, lest risk losing him in the near future.

Having already suffered an engine failure at the Italian Grand Prix a week ago, Verstappen’s woes were compounded when he lost power at the start of last Sunday’s Tuscan GP, causing him to fall back through the field where he became collateral damage in a clash between Pierre Gasly and Kimi Raikkonen.

Afterwards, the Dutchman did not try to hide his frustrations with his Honda power unit.

“We should not even have been in that position – it is really frustrating that we had another retirement,” he said. “But it is what it is. I am really not happy at the moment, but I can’t change it.”


Verstappen went on to tell Dutch broadcaster Ziggo Sport that he was “fed up with it”, and Marko knows it is imperative the situation improves in order to keep his star driver happy.

“Max has a fixed contract for 2021, but we are well aware that we also have to provide him with a competitive engine,” he told Sport1.

Honda has replaced engineers. Maybe that’s why there were the unexpected difficulties [at Monza and Mugello].

“They have made progress, but Mercedes is still superior, especially in the area of batteries. We have to start improving there now.”

While Verstappen’s “official” contract with Red Bull runs to 2023, Marko’s comments would seem to indicate that there is an exit clause after the 2021 season – something the 22-year-old could look to activate if he remains unable to contend with reigning champ Lewis Hamilton.
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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:51 am
Wouter wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:32 am
Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:10 am

.
You are missing the point. It's OK for people to hold Honda responsible, based on what the team has been saying. They might be completely wrong, but for the time being, they are right.

Why is it OK for people to hold Honda responsible, based on what the team has been said?

This is all that Honda has said:
Tanabe: "So, although we are happy about Alex’s first podium, it is very disappointing to have had a PU problem with Max, especially as he had looked to have good pace since Friday. We have already started analysing the problem back in the factory and we will now carry out an in-depth analysis to find the root cause, so as to be in good shape for the second half of the season."

I don't read anywhere here that Honda says they are to blame for the outage, do you?
https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/09/16 ... ve-engine/
Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko acknowledges his team must do better to help Max Verstappen contend for a Formula 1 championship, lest risk losing him in the near future.

Having already suffered an engine failure at the Italian Grand Prix a week ago, Verstappen’s woes were compounded when he lost power at the start of last Sunday’s Tuscan GP, causing him to fall back through the field where he became collateral damage in a clash between Pierre Gasly and Kimi Raikkonen.

Afterwards, the Dutchman did not try to hide his frustrations with his Honda power unit.

“We should not even have been in that position – it is really frustrating that we had another retirement,” he said. “But it is what it is. I am really not happy at the moment, but I can’t change it.”


Verstappen went on to tell Dutch broadcaster Ziggo Sport that he was “fed up with it”, and Marko knows it is imperative the situation improves in order to keep his star driver happy.

“Max has a fixed contract for 2021, but we are well aware that we also have to provide him with a competitive engine,” he told Sport1.

Honda has replaced engineers. Maybe that’s why there were the unexpected difficulties [at Monza and Mugello].

“They have made progress, but Mercedes is still superior, especially in the area of batteries. We have to start improving there now.”

While Verstappen’s “official” contract with Red Bull runs to 2023, Marko’s comments would seem to indicate that there is an exit clause after the 2021 season – something the 22-year-old could look to activate if he remains unable to contend with reigning champ Lewis Hamilton.

I don't read anywhere here in this article that Honda says they are to blame for the outage, you obviously do.

Helmut Marko and Max Verstappen are speaking here, they are only talking about the effect, not the cause!
They were angry that the engine was losing power, preventing Max from moving on.
Even they don't say it's Honda's fault that the engine suddenly lost power, because that could be 1001 causes.
They also don't know what caused the Honda engine to lose power. They too are anxious to see what the cause is.

No one can blame anyone for anything until the cause is known.

I'll leave it at this.

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mem
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:46 am
Honda announced the problem with Max' engine was not 'minor', it was pretty 'big'. That first and foremost excludes actual ECU problems.
Albon doesn't seem to suffer from the same problems, even though if i recall correct, Albon had a similar issue as Max at the first GP this season.

It's remarkable that this season, i'm seeing absolute parallels between Alonso and Verstappen. 'No power!'. How long before we hear 'GP2 engine?' lol.
I believe Alonso also suffered far more engine issues than VanDoorne, not unlike Max over Albon.

Could it be that both Alonso and Max driving style and/or setting preferences, have an influence on the way the engine is approached/pushed,
and the way Honda translates this to the engine inadvertedly causes problems? Whether that be the actual ICE or electric part aside.
it feels like they have an issue with their quality control department in Sakura , maybe they need to double the quality tests or bring more advanced robust machines or perhaps raise the testing temperature , it just feel odd.
something need to change in Sakura.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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_cerber1 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:26 am
ispano6 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:58 am
Someone doubted that the ECU could be at fault, I posted an example when McLaren admitted it was their software issues. The symptoms in the example, with issues starting in the garage, on formation lap...
These problems were 7 years ago, and these were new versions of the components that had some " childhood illnesses" that were later eliminated. In addition to the Honda, three more manufacturers use the same ECU, which are checked and sealed by the FIA, and there are no problems with them.
I don’t want to blame Honda, but their press release has no complaints about components supplied by McLaren. They see this problem on their side.
Far from it, they are investigating the cause. They have never said it's their fault, only that Max's result was unfortunate and that they are looking into the cause of their 1 PUs issues. It's people like you and writers who love to insinuate that the issue is with the engine and not the electronics. The internal combustion engine is not at fault here. Honda haven't determined what's wrong yet so they haven't blamed anyone.

MCLAREN back then ADMITTED it was their software issues and you call it" childhood illness". Talk about cognitive dissonance! Might want to get your ECU checked out.

ispano6
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:04 am
He is creating all kinds of conspiracy theories other than blaming Honda for not having done a good enough job. In fact, Honda representatives themselves are very transparent when the issues happen and take the blame, which is a very professional conduct. But some posters here are hell bent on saving honda from any criticism.
Not good enough? Compared to who? Honda already has two wins this season with their PUs. You two aren't even Max, Red bull, or Honda fans yet you're here time and again with your antics. You guys are just hellbent on criticizing Honda, admit it.

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I feel like Honda haters was desperatly waiting these dnf's to bare their hart.

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_cerber1
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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ispano6 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:48 pm
Far from it, they are investigating the cause. They have never said it's their fault, only that Max's result was unfortunate and that they are looking into the cause of their 1 PUs issues. It's people like you and writers who love to insinuate that the issue is with the engine and not the electronics. The internal combustion engine is not at fault here. Honda haven't determined what's wrong yet so they haven't blamed anyone.

MCLAREN back then ADMITTED it was their software issues and you call it" childhood illness". Talk about cognitive dissonance! Might want to get your ECU checked out.
Have you seen a lot of Honda confessions? They always got off with vague wording, like after Italy, when they said that the problem on PU Max was fixed and they did not expect repetition. Honda manufactures and supplies not only internal combustion engines, but also MGU-K, MGU-H, batteries, wires and all the necessary software. All together this is called a PU, no matter what can break down there, all this will be on the conscience of Honda. But, for some reason, I read here direct hints about the guilt of components made by McLaren.

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_cerber1
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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etusch wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:06 pm
I feel like Honda haters was desperatly waiting these dnf's to bare their hart.
Apparently Max does too.

rogazilla
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Since this is technical forum. Let's look at this and see if we can discuss this logically. Here is some of my observation and try to see what's happening. First I don't think this is a fundamental design issue. Why? There are 4 Honda PUs, while I am not fully understand the new TD but supposedly all 4 cars has to have the same settings. That suggest, this is not a fundamental design weakness but rather a weak component, a faulty component, maybe there is trickle down consequences but to be screaming as if Honda PU has a problem, I am not sold. I do agree that Honda needs to find the root cause and add quality control over the process. I would chalk this up the same with other manufacturers where the car couldn't be started or shut down on track and so on. I don't think these are fundamental design issue anymore.

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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_cerber1 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:43 pm
etusch wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:06 pm
I feel like Honda haters was desperatly waiting these dnf's to bare their hart.
Apparently Max does too.
Why do you care what the haters say? It doesn't change the truth, the result. Why does anyone care who's fault it is ? What does it change knowing who's fault it is?

You want the truth? Truth is Honda isn't the reason why RBR aren't more competative VS Mercedes. It's the car. It just isn't as fast in most types of corners. Anyways, it's near imposible to beat merc with how, up until now, the way they outspend everyone.