[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I think Honda management just called it quits and I am fearful of a continuation project feasability. certainly as others are (of course) looking at their own interests exclusively. I t would be a shame if we continue to see no battles for the win until 2026. I honestly don't know if I would keep watching as I do now. If I am totally honest, past years highly emotional (also because people made mistakes or were unfair(ly treated) on track battles were much more enjoyable. Even if we then always have all the bitter fanboy spouting.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

rogazilla
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:23 am
...
Something possibly interesting would be a 'backdoor' deal between RBR and Honda, possibly made up a long time ago, where they were always meant to 'take over' Honda's F1 engine, have RBR develop and change the Honda F1 engine, with the help of former Honda employees (get on RBR payroll), work out how to deal with the biofuel, all without being an 'official' honda engine and thus no bad publicity if anything goes bad, and then, at the end, RBR can sell the 'engine formula' back to Honda, and use it to translate into their automotive applications.
Not saying a 'return' of Honda into F1 by then, simply the truth being that Honda has found a way to 'secretly' work on technology in a 'secret' partnership with RB technologies which will NOT cost HONDA itself any money during that period. Let's call it a loophole.

Just a thought.
Leave Honda out of the restraint of FIA by not being part of F1 program but has a small skunk team to work with RBR to develop further?

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McG
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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bigblue wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:11 am
McG wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:01 am
[Remember it was only with outside help that Honda actually started to really improve.
Who helped out Honda ?
Red Bull were allowed a lot of input and Mario Illien helped with their vibrational problems plus no doubt other issues.
Honda, the power of giving up.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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What is RBR's budget? Somewhere around 300 million euros? The budget cap would essentially slash their budget by half, they could take the other half and spend it on the engine program, however the other manufacturers including Honda spend more than that on each of their respective programs. So RBR could continue Honda's engine program, or at least finance it, if they restrict developments on the engine, because the left overs from the budget cap wouldn't be enough to finance an entire engine program.

Ferrari is the fly in the ointment, since their power unit is down relative to the others, they are reluctant to agree to a freeze because it would lock them into an uncompetitive situation. I don't think teams are against spending less money on these engines, what they are against is being locked into an unfavorable position. If Ferrari were to have a competitive power unit for 2021, the agreement to freeze engine development would be easier. However, for Ferrari to catch up it has to invest resources, or come to an agreement with other manufacturers.

Furthermore all the manufacturers seem to be converging on a similar power unit layout anyway.
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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:59 pm
What is RBR's budget? Somewhere around 300 million euros? The budget cap would essentially slash their budget by half, they could take the other half and spend it on the engine program, however the other manufacturers including Honda spend more than that on each of their respective programs. So RBR could continue Honda's engine program, or at least finance it, if they restrict developments on the engine, because the left overs from the budget cap wouldn't be enough to finance an entire engine program.

Ferrari is the fly in the ointment, since their power unit is down relative to the others, they are reluctant to agree to a freeze because it would lock them into an uncompetitive situation. I don't think teams are against spending less money on these engines, what they are against is being locked into an unfavorable position. If Ferrari were to have a competitive power unit for 2021, the agreement to freeze engine development would be easier. However, for Ferrari to catch up it has to invest resources, or come to an agreement with other manufacturers.

Furthermore all the manufacturers seem to be converging on a similar power unit layout anyway.
Are Red Bull not involved in other motorsports? Possibly they could run more than the F1 engine from there.
They may consider moving into another sport and make their own engines. Could they build engines for any US series?
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I don't know how much RB has invested in other motor sports. Perhaps for marketing and commercial reasons, they wouldn't want to pull out of those other activities to focus solely on the F1 power unit. I don't know, just guessing.

Also consider a power unit isn't just an engine block, and a lot of engineering goes into all the other things. Companies like Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari, etc have parent automotive companies that already have tons of R&D into these things, a company like RBR could never compete with global auto manufacturers and their engineering resources. At least these companies have commercial vehicles they can sell and leverage to fund their R&D programs. RBR doesn't even make cars you and I could buy.

Mercedes drew on their the diesel division of Daimler to help them with their F1 power unit, Honda used it's aerospace division, Ferrari has Fiat, and their Fiat owned Maserati MC20, which is using pre-chamber tech. Also consider a Juggernaut of motorsport like Porsche which has huge technical capacity to build engines is shy about entering F1, you can see what a monumental challenge it is.

When you consider what these companies are worth publicly it's amazing Renault is as close as it is, then again Renault is partly owned by the French government, which could explain why funding at Viry isn't an issue. Then you also have to consider the involvement of the petrochemical companies into the power units because the fuel and lubricants are key components to their performance, and who knows how much resources they have involved in the power unit development. Ferrari has had long established partnerships with Shell, Petronas is title sponsor of Mercedes and provides fuel and lubricants, we saw much closer involvement of Esso/Mobil if we remember all the talk of fuel and spec 3's.

McLaren's Petrobras deal pretty much fell through because the Renault power unit cannot use anything but Castrol/BP fuel and lubricants.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:24 pm
I don't know how much RB has invested in other motor sports. Perhaps for marketing and commercial reasons, they wouldn't want to pull out of those other activities to focus solely on the F1 power unit. I don't know, just guessing.
I did not mean instead of other sports, just the opposite.
A quick Google I see they are in rallycross and Motor gp, Air race, and is it(motor) Boat race???

A central supply of their own branded engines, even if just improved or supplied by them would be an extra string to their bow. Even if it is something they are not in now, such as go carts, snow mobiles Daccar etc. Even possibly USA Stocks.

There could possibly eve be a cross sponsorship towards Formula E.

I know many of these are very different but still possibilities to get within what they are currently spending on F1come the cost cap as they wil have their own specialists in house.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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As much as I agreed that RBR needed to bring the Ferrari sensor lie, to the fore front. Isn't it ironic that this very act will likely cause Ferrari to block the 2022 PU freeze. Talk about Boomerrang EFFECT.

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godlameroso
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diffuser wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 pm
As much as I agreed that RBR needed to bring the Ferrari sensor lie, to the fore front. Isn't it ironic that this very act will likely cause Ferrari to block the 2022 PU freeze. Talk about Boomerrang EFFECT.
Indeed, or at least irony. That all depends on the power unit Ferrari brings out next year. Remember the big step Honda took from 2015 to 2016 and the step Ferrari took from 2014 to 2015. I think they can take a similar step, then again I expect a big step from everyone next year.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:29 am
diffuser wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 pm
As much as I agreed that RBR needed to bring the Ferrari sensor lie, to the fore front. Isn't it ironic that this very act will likely cause Ferrari to block the 2022 PU freeze. Talk about Boomerrang EFFECT.
Indeed, or at least irony. That all depends on the power unit Ferrari brings out next year. Remember the big step Honda took from 2015 to 2016 and the step Ferrari took from 2014 to 2015. I think they can take a similar step, then again I expect a big step from everyone next year.
I agree that is possible, I have no insight into what Ferrari are or aren't doing. They many also may have been working on this since early last year. I do know it is hard to catch up in this PU race. In my opinion the odds are against it.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Car should be good around here, they took a nice step forward in the low and mid speed corners of which there are plenty. It'll be very close in qualifying, I think we have a chance for pole.
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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ferrari may have veto over f1 rule but its not open ended they can only use if they can prove that rules introduced by fia severely affect them they cant use it to be spiteful

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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The physical and mechanical aspects of the car determine the aero shapes that can be used, and the general concept for the floor. Motorsport made a good point, that since DAS is banned for next year Mercedes has to make mechanical modifications to the front, which will have knock on effects to the bodywork and as a result aero downstream. Red Bull doesn't have that same issue, and they feel they can solve any deficiency caused by the new regulations through aero development. In the end it may just force teams to run more rear wing and as a result induce more drag, which will simply highlight the difference in engine power even more. I suppose such differences should be made apparent, and will help negotiations if we are to freeze the engines with the aim of creating a level'ish playing field.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee